|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 20:40:52 [Permalink]
|
Dude, I don't follow your reasoning as to why a higher gravity would require critters in it to mover faster. Yes, things fall faster, but how does that relate to a need for speed? In my unscholarly guesstimation, slow and steady would seem to be the likelier default.
My own thought is that smaller critters would be a lot better adapted than megafauna. In fact, I would expect that a creature like a earth rat might have little trouble adapting to 2.2 gees. Insects wold find no appreciable difference, except in flying (and that would depend on the atmospheric density). Most of the scaly critters for which Fil acts as an enabler might be quite happy in 2.2 gee.
An elephant, or a large dinosaur, would have to be an engineering marvel, just to walk. Of course, evolution is a marvelous engineer.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/01/2007 20:51:41 |
 |
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 20:44:35 [Permalink]
|
Filthy mused:quote:
As for intelligence, <shrug> define intelligence.... Same for civilization. What is the definition of "is", eh? Our concepts of those matters might not be the same as their's.
Okay, I'll bite.
An intelligent creature is one that is empowered to ponder the nature of intelligence, and is capable of such circular reasoning.
"Civilization" is simply city-living.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/01/2007 20:46:11 |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2007 : 21:00:53 [Permalink]
|
Half said:
quote:
Dude, I don't follow your reasoning as to why a higher gravity would require critters in it to mover faster. Yes, things fall faster, but how does that relate to a need for speed? In my unscholarly guesstimation, slow and steady would seem to be the likelier default.
With acceleration from gravity being more than twice that of earth, you'd have to be able to move faster to avoid falling things, like a pouncing predator. You'd have to be able to move faster to catch a baseball. You'd have to be much stronger to throw a baseball.
To do something simple, like catch yourself to prevent a fall, your reaction time and the speed with wich you move would have to be faster, along with the extra stregth to manage the task.
It is all, obviously, just speculation, but the need for increased speed and reaction times seems unavoidable in an environment where falling objects accelerate more than twice as fast as on earth. Same for the increased strength to carry th increased weight.
Of course, your idea of slow and small lifeforms is just as valid. I can imagine that being an effective adaptation for high G. Same for filthy's invertabrates. Seems like invertebrates would be a good candidate for living in a water environment in high G.
And its fun to think about All of us are, in reality, probably wrong about what traits evolution would produce in high G, but its a fun though experiment.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2007 : 06:38:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Filthy mused:quote:
As for intelligence, <shrug> define intelligence.... Same for civilization. What is the definition of "is", eh? Our concepts of those matters might not be the same as their's.
Okay, I'll bite.
An intelligent creature is one that is empowered to ponder the nature of intelligence, and is capable of such circular reasoning.
"Civilization" is simply city-living.
Oh goody! Somebody bit! Heh, define “city.” 
Ok, what if these hypothetical creatures have no brain, at least not as we think of such, and yet are still managing to communicate?
This is important because without communication, civilization could not exist. I maintain that civilization is not restricted to merely sentient creatures. In that context, bee hives and anthills are civilizations, are they not? So is a troop of baboons or a labyrinth full of funky, little naked mole rats. And lion prides and whale pods, and prairie dog towns as well.
Am I painting with too broad a brush here? I think not, and the brush get's broader as we go along.
These are all societies even more closely knit than our own, but what if a society is comprised of dedicated loners that only meet at territorial edges, and then only for reproduction purposes or to steal territory? That one too, is very common here on earth -- most cats, large and small, for example. Are these civilizations? I say that indeed they are, for communication, however limited, is vital at those territorial edges.
So, a civilization can be considered as structured interaction within a species through communication -- wup, forgot one; an important one: schooling fishes.
Ok, that said, if not agreed with, how might our distant neighbors, if any, communicate? Fishes do it largely through miniscule changes in pressure caused by others in the school and picked up through the lateral line, as well as actual electrical discharges, which, when you think about it, is pretty amazing.
So, as queried, what if these guys had only a nervous system without a defined brain? Could they communicate well enough to have a civilization? Sure, why not? Politicians do it all the time Precedent, of sorts, is all around us, notably in trees.
So, what if the creature(s) were all but sisal, like anemones? How might they communicate other than psychically, which we all know is a crock, on our world, anyway? Lots of ways, pheromones, for one. Posture for another.
And we must take into consideration that there would be many more than one species present.
See, we really don't know enough biology to do anything more that speculate upon such a alien scenario, and I'd give odds that every one of our speculations are dead wrong.
To finish up, here's AiG's take on it: quote:
Please note that links will take you directly to the source. AiG is not responsible for content on the news websites to which we refer.
1. BBC NEWS: “New ‘super-Earth' found in space”
It may be a record for exaggerating news out of proportion: the discovery of an extrasolar planet not much larger than earth has prompted giddy cries from some scientists who seem to suggest we'll be contacting extraterrestrial life forms before mid-May! So what's the real story?
The real story is that, through indirect methods of |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:41:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Filthy mused:quote:
As for intelligence, <shrug> define intelligence.... Same for civilization. What is the definition of "is", eh? Our concepts of those matters might not be the same as their's.
Okay, I'll bite.
An intelligent creature is one that is empowered to ponder the nature of intelligence, and is capable of such circular reasoning.
"Civilization" is simply city-living.
Oh goody! Somebody bit! Heh, define “city.”
Ok, what if these hypothetical creatures have no brain, at least not as we think of such, and yet are still managing to communicate?
This is important because without communication, civilization could not exist. I maintain that civilization is not restricted to merely sentient creatures. In that context, bee hives and anthills are civilizations, are they not? So is a troop of baboons or a labyrinth full of funky, little naked mole rats. And lion prides and whale pods, and prairie dog towns as well.
Am I painting with too broad a brush here? I think not, and the brush get's broader as we go along.
These are all societies even more closely knit than our own, but what if a society is comprised of dedicated loners that only meet at territorial edges, and then only for reproduction purposes or to steal territory? That one too, is very common here on earth -- most cats, large and small, for example. Are these civilizations? I say that indeed they are, for communication, however limited, is vital at those territorial edges.
So, a civilization can be considered as structured interaction within a species through communication -- wup, forgot one; an important one: schooling fishes.
Ok, that said, if not agreed with, how might our distant neighbors, if any, communicate? Fishes do it largely through miniscule changes in pressure caused by others in the school and picked up through the lateral line, as well as actual electrical discharges, which, when you think about it, is pretty amazing.
So, as queried, what if these guys had only a nervous system without a defined brain? Could they communicate well enough to have a civilization? Sure, why not? Politicians do it all the time Precedent, of sorts, is all around us, notably in trees.
So, what if the creature(s) were all but sisal, like anemones? How might they communicate other than psychically, which we all know is a crock, on our world, anyway? Lots of ways, pheromones, for one. Posture for another.
And we must take into consideration that there would be many more than one species present.
See, we really don't know enough biology to do anything more that speculate upon such a alien scenario, and I'd give odds that every one of our speculations are dead wrong.
To finish up, here's AiG's take on it: quote:
Please note that links will take you directly to the source. AiG is not responsible for content on the news websites to which we refer.
1. BBC NEWS: “New ‘super-Earth' found in space”
It may be a record for exaggerating news out of proportion: the discovery of an extrasolar planet not much larger than earth has prompted giddy cries from some scient |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 17:14:21 [Permalink]
|
I've noticed from years of posting at Skeptic Friends and at Bad Astronomy - there is a definite trend for Christian fundamentalists to despise the following. (Though other types of “religious” people might feel these things enhance their mysticism.) :
Big Bang theory
Evolution and Darwin
SETI
Einstein
Through subsequent posts and arguments, the reasons eventually surface as:
Big Bang theory – Competes with their brand of religious business. / Potentially disproves their dogma.
Evolution and Darwin – Competes with their brand of religious business. / Potentially disproves their dogma.
SETI –Potentially disproves their creationist dogma. Unravels divine source of the born-again types.
Einstein - Potentially disproves their dogma. Latent or blatant anti-Semitism.
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 18:25:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
What's a city? It's a place where civilized intelligences (beings evolved to the point they can use circular reasoning) reside.
Erm, that definition is too tight, I think. A creature doesn't have to be sentient or approaching it to live in and maintain a city. So again with the naked mole rats: quote:
The naked mole rat is native to the drier parts of the tropical grasslands of East Africa, predominantly South Ethiopia, Kenya, and Somalia.
Clusters averaging 75-80 live together in complex systems of burrows in arid African deserts. The tunnel systems built by naked mole rats can stretch up to two or three miles in cumulative length.[1]
Other than lacking public transportation and garbage collection, how is this not a city?
I think that any active hive can be considered a city. After all, it's residents live there permenantly and scrupulously maintain it. Mole rats have workers harvesting food and maintaining the tunnels, and soldiers to maintain order and fend off enemies, including mole rats from other hives. Same with honey bees; same with ants.
But let's open it up a little farther: from the above point of view, can a reef, with all of it's bewildering diversity and conflicts, be considered a city?
I'm pretty tired tonight, so I won't answer that at the moment. Besides, I need time to come up with a good one.... 
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 00:20:50 [Permalink]
|
Again with the mole rats, Filthy? Always these hoity-toity, so cultured and urbane, civilized mole rats!
You like 'em so much for their civilized manners, then you sponsor their citizenship. But I'm going to guess that once you know them up close and personal, you'll just end up feeding them to your snakes.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/03/2007 03:25:48 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 04:02:50 [Permalink]
|
Cute link, HM. I see you, me, and Marf are up at this ungodly hour again. So I think I'll head to bed with that funny page in my head before I read anymore things about Bush or Iraq that depresses me again.
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 06:42:26 [Permalink]
|
Heh, neat link. The Onion seldom fails to make an incomparable comment upon most any topic.
Thanks...
With y'all's permission, I'll postpone my coral-reef/city blither beyond stating that indeed they are, and let everyone else argue it, if they so wish. Got something else going and my head won't contain both.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 10:11:25 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Reading between the lines, it's apparent that AiG knows that finding signs of life on another planet will be a major blow against the ongoing Creationist effort to retain the idea of a small, simple, and absurdly young universe in the minds of the public.
And it will be a triumph for the Mormons, who are almost as detested by the AiG types as the non-theists. Then all they will need is to find a planet or star which is a single solid crystal...
|
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 10:15:00 [Permalink]
|
On the what is a city topic,
For me a city is a central hub/place of residence for managing outlying areas, no city is self-sustaining...yet. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 18:31:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
How Earth-like? 'Temperate and able to sustain life' Earth-like or 'completely overrun with self-absorbed assholes' Earth-like?
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Heh, neat link. The Onion seldom fails to make an incomparable comment upon most any topic.
Thanks...
Too true.
Hell, sometimes just the pictures, names, and job descriptions are enough to get a laugh out of me. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 03:03:44 [Permalink]
|
JohnOAS wrote:quote:
Hell, sometimes just the pictures, names, and job descriptions are enough to get a laugh out of me.
Me, too, even though (especially since?) the pictures are always of the same people.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Earthlike planet
