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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 21:35:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill Scott:
You really think we can alter a completely natural phenomena, if that is what this is?
We have altered a completely natural phenomenon. That is precisely the problem.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 03:09:06 [Permalink]
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Yes, as Kil notes, the plan you sometimes seem to oppose, Bill, is to simply slow the input of further carbon dioxinde into the atmosphere.
Or perhaps you are one of these people who think of our Island Earth as an infinite, God-given resource for profligate exploitation? Seas that can infinitely absorb all manner of waste products, while supplying an unending amount of fish? We've reached those limits, Bill -- ask almost any deep-sea fisherman. Our much more tenuous atmosphere cannot absorb all the carbon dioxide we've dumped into it for centuries. Not without effect. The effect is to cause heating of the planet.
Look at this graph from Wiki, Bill:
Now, clearly, as you put it, we are "alter[ing] a completely natural phenomena."
Again, Bill, I ask you: Where do you think that carbon dioxide come from? It's time to be honest, Bill.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/02/2007 03:09:39 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2007 : 03:59:49 [Permalink]
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We alter natural phenomena all the time -- light through a lens, for a minor example.
I repeat, as have others, ad nauseum, the scientific consensus, those opinions resulting from the detailed and disciplined study by a large number of knowledgeable professionals, states that we are responsible for the buildup of so-called greenhouse gases. Now, who are we to consider the most reliable on the topic; they or those who oppose the findings more for reasons of convenience, than much else? I'll even throw the few dissenting scientists into the mix, because that's what science is all about: arguing the evidence until an accurate consensus is reached. I'm only surprised that some few are still in denial, and wonder about their motivation.
Rag on Gore if you wish, it's no skin off my nose. But you should do some serious research first.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 06:44:09 [Permalink]
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| Bill, you seem to think that since doing little things is of little value (knife to the gun fight and all), then we shouldn't do anything. But doesn't it make more sense to, in addition to the little things, compel--through whatever viable means we can think of-- governments to do big things? It's easy for this administration to ignore some letters written by obviously liberal people. But when people like you-- their base-- start to complain, it becomes harder to ignore. And that's the only way that this government is going to make the real changes needed to stop the madness. Well, that and electing a much smarter, less evil administration in 2008. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 07:05:09 [Permalink]
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Bill, I'm sure that merely missed this:
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
Hey Bill, I was wondering if you ever going to get around to responding to this post from Kil waaayyyy back on April 6th?
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7832&whichpage=2#116431
You said that you were going to discuss Kil's facts "shortly". Does 25 days count as shortly?
It's alright. I understand why you might want to stick to silly little tactics like skewering Al Gore because you don't like him vs. actually debating the facts.
I'm sure that you aren't avoiding answering the tough questions...
26 days and counting... |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 07:52:19 [Permalink]
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Half said:
quote:
Our much more tenuous atmosphere cannot absorb all the carbon dioxide we've dumped into it for centuries. Not without effect. The effect is to cause heating of the planet.
Our oceans absorb something on the order of half the CO2 we dump into the air.
There is a significant consequence of this that gets little mention in the popular media, probably because it requires 30 or more seconds to explain in summary.
Increased CO2 in the air --> Oceans absorb more CO2 --> Ocean pH is altered --> Phytoplankton (the botom of the food chain in our oceans, atleast in the parts we harvest for food and other resources) (also responsible for ~half the O2 production of the planet) live only in a certain pH range --> Acidic oceans means a change in phytoplankton abundance --> Less phytoplankton means fewer animals all the way up the food chain --> Less phytoplankton also means less annual O2 production
If we continue to pollute with CO2 the inevitable consequence is a sterile acidic set of oceans.
I guess if we sterilize our oceans then all those people who live near them and depend on them for food will die anyway, so no big deal that the land they live on now will end up underwater.
So even if MMGW were a complete error there are still severe consequences to CO2 pollution.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 08:07:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott:
I see what you're saying. My only concern is that switching to CFL's is like bringing a knife to a gun fight when we consider the alarming rate of coal proliferation going on through out our planet. Yes it helps, but on the grand scale the fact is that anything we do will be negated by the rise of global coal proliferation. I say the rate could exceed any steps we make here.
I cannot pass this one up:
Translation:
There are some steps we can take but they won't be enough anyway, so why bother?
Are you serious, Bill? You're saying we should just give up because you think we can't do enough anyway? On the other side, I do appreciate your admission that we can do something about it. It's a heartening start to your progression towards realism.
Edited for formatting -- B10 |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 05/02/2007 08:09:06 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 08:45:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott:
I see what you're saying. My only concern is that switching to CFL's is like bringing a knife to a gun fight when we consider the alarming rate of coal proliferation going on through out our planet. Yes it helps, but on the grand scale the fact is that anything we do will be negated by the rise of global coal proliferation. I say the rate could exceed any steps we make here.
I cannot pass this one up:
Translation:
There are some steps we can take but they won't be enough anyway, so why bother?
Are you serious, Bill? You're saying we should just give up because you think we can't do enough anyway? On the other side, I do appreciate your admission that we can do something about it. It's a heartening start to your progression towards realism.
Edited for formatting -- B10
This is exactly what I was thinking! |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:12:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
I cannot pass this one up:
Are you serious, Bill? You're saying we should just give up because you think we can't do enough anyway?
No, I conceded to Dave W. that CFL's seemed to make good sense, if just from the “not having to change light bulbs so dang often” reasoning alone.
And I pointed out to dude that the race between afordable fossil fuel and affordable green fuel was on. I am being convicted here just for pointing out the fact that FF's are curently winning. That does not mean that I like it, just that I am the one who is being realistic here.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:22:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude the liar
I had to do that.
quote:
I'd rather have a knife at a gunfight than be unarmed.
Either way I would shot you first.
quote:
And yes, we have been saying it in every thread you are posting in about global warming... WE KNOW THAT THE BIG CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE CAN ONLY BE MADE BY GOVERNMENTS>
But, to fucking bad for us all, our current government barely recognizes that humans are, with almost unprecedented scientific confidence, CONTRIBUTING to global warming.
What did Bill and Al do to further the research for wind power between 1992-2000, not that I am defending the rebubs mind you.
quote:
They, and you, are the real problem here Bill. People who refuse to accept the scientific consensus and refuse to insist on immediate action.
I am the only one pointing out the real problem to you, global coal proliferation for the use of electric power source for developing nations.
quote:
You buy all the lies. You probably honestly believe that it is unfair economically for the US to restrict CO2 pollution, but not insist in it from smaller developing countries. The exact opposite is true, on the large scale. Sure, some people are going to lose money. The people heavily invested in fossil fuel.
I am not invested in FF one IODA. As I have said many times now, I hate big oil.
quote:
But the economy will not flinch, because the energy demand remains the same! Some means to fill that demand will exist, and the total economic impact will be negligible.
Yes, but that mean which to fill that need has yet to have been discovered. And by the looks of the “Be part of the solution” thread, and the total bankrupt state they have deomonstrated that the search for affordable alternative fuel is in, it looks like no realistic hope is even on the horizon.
quote:
We need to rapidly expand our wind infrastructure.
I give you credit for the only one who has even offered a real idea. However, I am not a wind opponent. I am merely a realist, so I ask once again, “what % of Chinas current power consumption is filled by wind? What about a realistic prediction for five years from now?” Do realize what this looks like compared to thier rate of their coal consumption and proliferation?
quote:
We need to enforce fuel efficiency standards, like the Chinese and Europeans are doing.
Hello? China just pass |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:56:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott...
I had to do that.
But, Bill, you make a habit of lying and Dude doesn't. Of course you already know that.
And once again you've refused to actually address any of those issues about which you are so fond of complaining. Why don't you propose some kind of solution instead of just continuing to bitch about it? You've been asked to do that several times now by several people. Are you ignoring us on purpose, Bill, or do you have, as many here have suspected, some kind of reading comprehension disability?
quote:
I give you credit for the only one who has even offered a real idea.
Actually most of the participants in these discussions have offered ideas which will help make at least a little difference. But you sure as hell haven't, Bill. Got anything to offer besides more crying and moaning?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 17:42:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
I am being convicted here just for pointing out the fact that FF's are curently winning.
No, you're being "convicted" for reposting comments like those of "John" and "Carol" as if they have merit in a serious discussion of global warming. Just like you bring up Al Gore as if he's the Moses of climate change and you're the atheist. Just like you bring up China and India as if their polluting means that we cannot do anything.
The fact is that while China's increases in pollution may cancel out our own decreases, at this point in time stasis in greenhouse gas levels is better than a constant increase. In fact, a smaller increase is better than a larger increase. So the behavior of China, India and all other developing nations is actually irrelevant to any discussion of what we can do to improve things.
And because you've already conceded that we can improve things, you've brought nothing to this discussion except for bizarre logic about Mars and comments from people more ignorant than yourself, Bill. Please, though, continue to praise Dude for doing what you don't seem to be capable of. We don't see enough of that around here. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2007 : 17:45:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
I am being convicted here just for pointing out the fact that FF's are curently winning. That does not mean that I like it, just that I am the one who is being realistic here.
More lies...
You're not convicted for pointing out the fact that Fossile Fuel is currently winning.
And among us here, you seem to be more disconnected from reality than any of us.
You are "convicted" for denying overwhelming evidence, and failing to examine even a single link provided to you. You haven't even commeted on the graph that Halfmooner just posted.
Edited: grammar |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/02/2007 17:46:58 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 17:49:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Dude the liar
I had to do that.quote:
I'd rather have a knife at a gunfight than be unarmed.
Either way I would shot you first.
With your track-record here at SFN, I wouldn't worry in the least. You would'n be able to hit the barn, even if you stood inside...  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 18:12:50 [Permalink]
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Bill liar-from-mars scott said:
quote:
Either way I would shot you first.
I know a guy who, within 25 feet or so, would wreck anyone with a gun... and his weapon of choice is a knife.
Hell, from 5 feet or so anyone with some training can defeat a gunman with a knife or club.
So your analogy is still flawed.
You do what you can, and in any matter of life or death, you fight like mad to survive with the tools you have at hand.
It is possible as an individual to make a difference. It is also possible for our government to assume a leadership role on this issue and, through diplomacy and negotiation, get developing nations onboard as well.
But the first thing you have to do, bill, is educate yourself on the actual science, stop being so willing to lie and spread other people's lies, and acknowlege the facts. MMGW is a fact. We are contributing to warming, and CO2 pollution is the primary source of our contribution.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Climate change hits Mars
