|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 05/03/2007 : 18:23:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
If that were actually true, then you'd have to admit the failure is due to republican politicians.
So what have the dems done in the last 40-50 years that was so effective to not receive your wrath? Not that I am defending the pubs mind you.
quote:
FFS RIGHT GDAMN NOW a republican can't get a fucking seat on the senate committee that deals with this issue UNLESS THEY PUBLICLY STATE THAT THEY DO NOT BELIEVE HUMANS ARE CONTRIBUTING TO GLOBAL WARMING.
So when are you changing your party affiliation to dem or green, and when are you going to stop voting for republicans Bill?
What party affiliation?
quote:
Because the ONLY way to solve these issues on the scale they need to be solved on is via action from the federal government.
What did Bill and Al do with their 8 years to help in this?
quote:
No Bill. What you are doing is throwing china and other developing nations out there as an excuse for the US to do nothing. Why bother at all since these guys are out-polluting us?
Where did I say that?
quote:
Well, Bill, who the hell else CAN fix the problem? The US has the wealth to solve the problem, but thanks to people like you and the reality denying politicians you vote for, we lack the political will to even try to solve the problems.
So even though nothing was done between 1992-2000 this will change if a dem is in the house in 09? Your blind political allegiance is mesmerizing.
quote:
Which is fucked up beyond all comprehension, because we already have the technology to solve CO2 pollution.
Why did not Bill and Al apply any of this in 1992-2000.
quote:
If we took the money that has been spent, to date, on our fake terror war in Iraq we could probably eliminate most US CO2 pollution (bring our net close to zero) from a combination of wind, coal with CO2 sequestration, and cellulosic ethanol production for E85.
If Bill would have just said yes then we could have saved millions from the impeachment and just applied that money towards this as well.
quote:
All you are doing Bill is looking for a justification to do nothing,
And your politicizing of this and your refusal to put any of this at any dems door step makes me sick.
quote:
as evidenced by your continuous implication that nothing we can do will actually mean anything in the big picture.
I never said that there is nothing that we can do. I said that what we are currently doing now is not enough, in light of the rate of coal proliferation around the globe.
quote:
You couldn't be more wrong.
Liar.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
 |
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 18:48:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott...
I never said that there is nothing that we can do. I said that what we are currently doing now is not enough, in light of the rate of coal proliferation around the globe.
And of course you haven't offered any ideas about how those issues might be resolved, either. So far you've just been a big cry baby about it. Problems are a dime a dozen, Bill. It actually takes some balls to describe what one believes to be a problem and follow up with some kind of proposed solutions. So far it doesn't look like you've got any. But to give you the benefit of the doubt again, for the dozenth time, are you just going to continue your whiny little rant, or will you actually show some integrity and offer your suggestions as to what we can do about it?
|
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 18:57:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
The only point that I made of the whole article was that climate change was not limited to Earth and Earth alone. I never made a Mars to Earth direct correlation. Those are your words.
So then, what was your point?
If you weren't implying this gives us some useful information, or could be used to draw some conclusions about some other issue, why did you post it?
The comments you chose to quote in response to the article must have some relevance to you and your argument, or you wouldn't have picked them. What was so special about the responses of Rory Miller, of Owensboro, Kentucky and John, of College Park (MD, no less)?
|
John's just this guy, you know. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 19:28:38 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
I am looking at this serious problem of coal proliferation with a realist attitude.
You're obviously looking from the wrong perspective, and obiously not realistic. Or maybe realist but myopic.
Everyone has to do their part. I'm doing my part. Are you doing your part? I don't think so, because I haven't seen anything constructive from you yet.
quote:
Right now I see a stock pile of coal for the consumption and no serious alternative on the distant horizon.
That's because you're not looking hard enough. We already have other, "cleaner" energy sources. We just don't have economic efficiency in them yet. But we can have, if we put some "energy" into developing them.
quote:
Right now I am looking for a serious solution to this problem and I am concerned by the void I am finding.
The void exists in your mind.
There are serious solutions, your "neo-con" attitude just prevents you from seeing them. But I can help you there. Just hang tight, and I'll provide you with examples you can adopt as your own.
quote:
My only point was that climate change goes on all over the solar system. I never made a direct correlation between Mars and Earth.
But you brought it up in the context of MMGW.
Things that can be done:
Anyway, there are stuff you/we can do to make China and India not build as many coal plants as they are planning. How? By providing both a carrot and a lash.
China and India could build nuclear plants instead of coal plants. But in order to do that, the nuclear plants need to be more economical. USA could export nuclear power generation technology to China and India. That way USA could take credit for helping those countries reducing their CO2 emissions. It's a Win-win situation for the US government, and would create much needed international respect.
This is not presently possible, because the US government has placed a ban on export of nuclear technology. The problem is a political one, that can only be solved by YOU electing politicians that have the guts to change current policies.
Develop a technology to convert Weapons-grade Uranium and Plutonium to be used in nuclear power generation plants. USA, Russia, and China each have tons upon tons of nuclear warheads that are of no use anymore. Especially Russia and old Soviet satellite states has warheads they have no use for. They can convert and sell fissionable material to India for a profit, no mining necessary for perhaps several hundred years!
Kill two birds with one stone: reduce the number of nuclear warheads in the world, and provide cheap CO2-free electric energy.
Again, America is the country with the most advanced scientific- and engineering knowledge to pull something like this off...
The problem is foremost a political one, that can only be solved by YOU electing politicians that have the guts to change current policies on the matter.
LEAD BY EXAMPLE. Chinese and Indian policies can be changed if diplomatic and economic pressure is applied. But in order to do that, USA has to "clean up" its own act. If the American government as it is today starts demanding China and India restricting CO2 emissions, every nation on Earth would start screaming "Bloody Hypocrite".
Start by signing the Kyoto treaty. Start living up to being ecologically responsible by applying more restrictive policies on all kinds of emissions, not only CO2, but mercury, cadmium, and other carcinogenic substances.
The problem is foremost a political one, that can only be solved by YOU electing politicians that have the guts to change current policies on the matter.
Who are you?
You say that you are a conservative.
But what kind of conservative?
If you are an economical fiscal conservative, then the Republican party is not your party: More fiscally irresponsible administration has never existed in American history. Tax reliefs for the extremely rich, while wasting hundreds of billion dollars on an illegal war in Iraq that was no threat to anyone but itself. However, the Democratic Party and the Clinton administration balanced the budget, and applied fiscal responsibility.
If you are an ecological conservative, then the Republican party is not your party: The current administration has weakened the laws that regulate emissions and industry that have negative impacts on the environment. They subsidise the oil-industry.
Greens and Democrats work for an environmentally responsible future.
If you are a political/policy conservative, then you are a part of the problem, because without changing policies, you will keep going in the same direction and finally arrive at the destination you are currently heading: Straight to Hell.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 19:29:56 [Permalink]
|
bill said:
quote:
Liar.
Ok, you're right. You COULD be more wrong.
My bad.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 20:46:25 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
quote:
So then, what was your point?
That climate change occurs naturally all over our solar system all the time and this even includes Earth.
quote:
If you weren't implying this gives us some useful information, or could be used to draw some conclusions about some other issue, why did you post it?
The information and/or conclusion was that climate change occurs naturally all over our solar system all the time and this even includes Earth.
quote:
The comments you chose to quote in response to the article must have some relevance to you and your argument, or you wouldn't have picked them. What was so special about the responses of Rory Miller, of Owensboro, Kentucky and John, of College Park (MD, no less)?
These were the last three people to have posted comments. If you noticed the last three people or so to leave comments are the ones posted. To read the rest you have to click over. If you notice I gave the link to the article in the invite to sound off in the comments. That was the only reason I added those at all. Frankly I am surprised that this has been more of an issue then the actual article I was posting, which I found very interesting.
I just looked and the comments are up to 480. Hurry, Hurry and get your two cents in there.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/03/2007 20:56:03 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2007 : 02:33:04 [Permalink]
|
Just happened across this: quote:
Reach Deal on Climate Change
By MICHAEL CASEY
The Associated Press
Friday, May 4, 2007; 4:53 AM
BANGKOK, Thailand -- Delegates at an international conference on climate change brokered a blueprint Friday for combatting global warming, resisting pressure from China to tone down language on cutting emissions of heat-trapping gases.
The delegates agreed the world can avoid the catastrophic consequences of global warming by drastically reducing its reliance over the next few decades on the burning of coal, oil and other fossil fuels that produce greenhouse gases. Their report also advocates significantly reducing the deforestation of the planet.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 04:23:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Just happened across this: quote:
Reach Deal on Climate Change
By MICHAEL CASEY
The Associated Press
Friday, May 4, 2007; 4:53 AM
BANGKOK, Thailand -- Delegates at an international conference on climate change brokered a blueprint Friday for combatting global warming, resisting pressure from China to tone down language on cutting emissions of heat-trapping gases.
The delegates agreed the world can avoid the catastrophic consequences of global warming by drastically reducing its reliance over the next few decades on the burning of coal, oil and other fossil fuels that produce greenhouse gases. Their report also advocates significantly reducing the deforestation of the planet.
"and how much weight to give certain policy measures, such as advanced nuclear power, an option supported by the United States."
Would that be a giant step or what? The libs and cons agreeing to investigate the use of nuclear power as opposed to coal in an effort to combat MMGW, and/or just to have clean air.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/04/2007 04:29:15 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 04:34:33 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
... you will keep going in the same direction and finally arrive at the destination you are currently heading: Straight to Hell.
Wow, I was under the impression that you did not acknowledge the existence of hell, but now you even claim to have knowledge of who is going there. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 04:47:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude King of Spin
quote:
Ok, you're right. You COULD be more wrong.
My bad.
Bill and Al did nothing extravagant with their 8 years in office to go green, did they?
The dems have had no outstanding effort to go green over the last 40-50 years, have they? If they did then we would not be having this discussion. And they have had control their fair share of the time over that period so don't bother to whine about some mythical 40 year long GOP strong hold that kept them from this.
Why don't you just admit that your repub ranting and tirades are not based in reality, but are rather feed by your bias tunnel vision and blind allegiance to one party. Not that I am defending the pubs efforts to go green over this same period mind you, only to point out how silly you are to think this is strictly a pub problem and not a federal government top to bottom problem.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/04/2007 04:54:35 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 07:28:29 [Permalink]
|
Slowly, slowly, the world wakes up.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 08:18:08 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
That climate change occurs naturally all over our solar system all the time and this even includes Earth.
Since nobody disputes the fact that the Earth undergoes natural climate change, what was your point? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 09:15:44 [Permalink]
|
Bill,
Let me say for one thing, thanks for a reasoned and rational response. It seems that we agree on a lot more than either of us would have believed.
First, from what I know, even though changing over to CFLs *seems* like a trivial matter, I have read that if everyone in this country switched over to CFLs, that would make a huge difference in greenhouse gases. But I'll let that point slide for now.
Let's talk coal proliferation. We both agree it's a problem, especially in developing countries, China and India being the two examples that come to mind. I will use those two as an example for any further discussion. I am making no claims as to the veracity of whether or not they are accurately labelled: this is merely arbitrary for discussion purposes.
So I see these as the potential options:
1) nuclear. Cleaner, more controllable, able to provide the vast amounts of power required, proven track record, infrastructure in place, fissionable material available.
2) carbon sequestration: I know very, very little about this except that there are NO carbon sequestration plants existing and the they are apparently costly to build.
3) anthracite: questionable technology. I have only heard it mentioned in passing from one place so I have idea if it is a pipedream or not.
OK, I would love to think that offshore windfarms could supply the energy required, or that solar farms setup in deserts could supply the energy needed. But, from the experts that I've followed, evidently, they aren't feasible.
There's a ton of ways I could go from here (i.e. pellet fuels for heat, wind as a cheap energy source, switchgrass as a pellet fuel, biofuels, "shotgunning" energy sources [not relying on one, but many], the Buckminster Fuller idea of unifying the global power grid so that one side of the globe is sleeping...the other's energy use is up, and so on).
What do you want to explore? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 14:38:57 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
... you will keep going in the same direction and finally arrive at the destination you are currently heading: Straight to Hell.
Wow, I was under the impression that you did not acknowledge the existence of hell, but now you even claim to have knowledge of who is going there.
Wow, and here I was under the impression you weren't stupid enough to miss a figure of speech.
But I can read between the lines... You comment on "straight to hell" rather than anything constructive I've written. That says a lot about you. You hack at straw-men and swing red herrings around you, rather than facing inconvenient truths. That makes you a coward in my opinion. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Climate change hits Mars
