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j911ob
Skeptic Friend
223 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2007 : 07:48:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
An unprecedented collapse.
Hardly. Two much larger buildings collapsed just hours before..
Perhaps you didnt notice the planes that had hit those 2 buildings. |
"Any pressurized can exposed to heat will explode like a grenade. Even a sealed bag of potato chips, if not melted by direct flame, can 'pop' with quite a report." - Kookbreaker at JREF, responding to reports of explosions in the towers. |
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j911ob
Skeptic Friend
223 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 07:49:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
You're just trying to shift the burden of proof away from yourself. What others can "credibly argue" is irrelevant to whether your argument from incredulity is valid and sound. It isn't.
The burden of proof is on the official story. Until they prove it I am quite entitled to question it. |
"Any pressurized can exposed to heat will explode like a grenade. Even a sealed bag of potato chips, if not melted by direct flame, can 'pop' with quite a report." - Kookbreaker at JREF, responding to reports of explosions in the towers. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 07:59:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
quote:
You're just trying to shift the burden of proof away from yourself. What others can "credibly argue" is irrelevant to whether your argument from incredulity is valid and sound. It isn't.
The burden of proof is on the official story. Until they prove it I am quite entitled to question it.
Indeed you are, as is any thinking person. But whatever hypothesis you/they put forth as to the cause, that burden of proof rests with you.
I favor detail over the "Big Picture." If I have that, the rest becomes clear. Yes, "extrodinary claims require extraordinary proofs." -- Carl Sagan
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/08/2007 08:00:07 |
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j911ob
Skeptic Friend
223 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 08:03:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
quote:
You're just trying to shift the burden of proof away from yourself. What others can "credibly argue" is irrelevant to whether your argument from incredulity is valid and sound. It isn't.
The burden of proof is on the official story. Until they prove it I am quite entitled to question it.
Indeed you are, as is any thinking person. But whatever hypothesis you/they put forth as to the cause, that burden of proof rests with you.
I favor detail over the "Big Picture." If I have that, the rest becomes clear. Yes, "extrodinary claims require extraordinary proofs." -- Carl Sagan
This is what I dont understand about self proclaimed skeptics. Why are you not asking questions of the official account. The government and its agencies are proven liars yet you accept their ridiculous theories without any questioning.
Skeptics should be asking the government how on earth fire does that to a building. |
"Any pressurized can exposed to heat will explode like a grenade. Even a sealed bag of potato chips, if not melted by direct flame, can 'pop' with quite a report." - Kookbreaker at JREF, responding to reports of explosions in the towers. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 08:30:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
Why are you not asking questions of the official account. The government and its agencies are proven liars yet you accept their ridiculous theories without any questioning.
Well, that's what all this nonsense boils down to. You, j911ob, assume (without evidence) that none of us have ever questioned the official account. And that assumption is, of course, incorrect.
Frankly, the official story is boring, with all its photos, diagrams, physics, architecture and - worst of all - its rationally tentative and highly qualified conclusions. Sure, the collapse "may have" occured as described. Yawn.
SilentKoala, on the other hand, makes claims of "proof." That's exciting, sensational and interesting! Yet now you seem to be faulting us for being titillated, even though that is clearly his (and your) intent. And just like any good TV programming director, you're keeping the really scandalous stuff a secret, biding your time for the "big reveal" one hopes. Well, don't keep us waiting. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 08:50:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave:
And just like any good TV programming director, you're keeping the really scandalous stuff a secret, biding your time for the "big reveal" one hopes. Well, don't keep us waiting.
Yes indeed. We clowns could use a good dismantling. It keeps us on our toes. How's it going for you guys? When does the other shoe fall?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 09:18:16 [Permalink]
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I for one, don't altogether trust the official story, at least partially for the reasons given, but that should not be taken to mean that I'll jump on just any old bandwagon that comes along. However, should someone have an hypothesis that doesn't come from out-of-date medications, I'll certainly give it a look.
I've looked, and found these various conspiricies wanting. That can change, of course, but it will require much firmer evidence than that I've seen thus far.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 19:58:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
However, I'd still be interested in how those charges were set, alledgly. Y'see, I don't know for sure how 7 came down, although I am highly skeptical that it was done by explosive implosion.
Convince me...
You seem to require an inordinate amount of evidence. You only need look at the bigger picture.
That's not how science is done. If you look at the bigger picture, you'll be tempted to make numerous assumptions that support it, ignoring the pesky facts that don't. Sure you can use a collection of facts to arrive at the big picture, but to do the reverse is extremely poor methodology.
I don't speak for Filthy, but I'm pretty sure any actual evidence (independantly confirmable, of the sort of quality that would be sufficient in a court of law) would be a great start.
Of course, if you're just trying to generate publicity, or be the next National Enquirer, then it's exactly the way to go about things.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2007 : 23:39:50 [Permalink]
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Hmm... regarding the claim that WTC7 couldn't have been brought down by a few "random fires"- perhaps a look at some of the statements made by the firefighters who were on the scene would be relevant.
quote:
7 World Trade Center was roaring. I remember being pulled off the pile like just before. It wasn't just before. It was probably an hour before 7 came down. –Firefighter Kevin Howe
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110469.PDF
Hayden: By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.
Firehouse Magazine: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that's probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn't make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.
Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?
Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn't want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn't even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn't know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o'clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. –Deputy Chief Peter Hayden http://tinyurl.com/zwtrs
They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on.
Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there.
Finally it did come down. From there -- this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down. That's when they let the guys go on. I just remember we started searching around all the rigs. –Firefighter Richard Banaciski
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110253.PDF
So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you lo |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2007 : 01:05:57 [Permalink]
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Alright, which one of you yobs put in the over-long URL and fucked the format of the page so's it can't be read without a reciprocating monitor?
To avoid that nonsense in the future, go here: quote:
Welcome to TinyURL!™
Are you sick of posting URLs in emails only to have it break when sent causing the recipient to have to cut and paste it back together? Then you've come to the right place. By entering in a URL in the text field below, we will create a tiny URL that will not break in email postings and never expires.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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j911ob
Skeptic Friend
223 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 05:00:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
However, I'd still be interested in how those charges were set, alledgly. Y'see, I don't know for sure how 7 came down, although I am highly skeptical that it was done by explosive implosion.
Convince me...
You seem to require an inordinate amount of evidence. You only need look at the bigger picture.
That's not how science is done. If you look at the bigger picture, you'll be tempted to make numerous assumptions that support it, ignoring the pesky facts that don't. Sure you can use a collection of facts to arrive at the big picture, but to do the reverse is extremely poor methodology.
I don't speak for Filthy, but I'm pretty sure any actual evidence (independantly confirmable, of the sort of quality that would be sufficient in a court of law) would be a great start.
Of course, if you're just trying to generate publicity, or be the next National Enquirer, then it's exactly the way to go about things.
Since when is solving crimes about science? A jury decides on a preponderance of the evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. Police and FBI are not scientists, why on earth would you apply the scientific method to this crime? |
"Any pressurized can exposed to heat will explode like a grenade. Even a sealed bag of potato chips, if not melted by direct flame, can 'pop' with quite a report." - Kookbreaker at JREF, responding to reports of explosions in the towers. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 05:13:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Alright, which one of you yobs put in the over-long URL and fucked the format of the page so's it can't be read without a reciprocating monitor?...
I dunno, Filthy it looks OK to me, although I know the symptom of which you peak. I'm not sure it's related to only long URL's, I'm pretty sure I've seen the page extra wide for no aparrent reason, but maybe I just didn't look hard enough.
Not that many of the messages on this page are edited, so I'm not sure who/what the culprit was here.
The tip and link is still a good one though, long url's can break, although simply hiding the link works just as well. For those that need a primer:
Make this:
http://www.google.com.au
look like this:
Google!
with this:
[url="http://www.google.com.au"]Google[/url]!
More detail here.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 05:24:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by j911ob
Since when is solving crimes about science? A jury decides on a preponderance of the evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. Police and FBI are not scientists, why on earth would you apply the scientific method to this crime?
Are you serious? I work in law enforcement, and I can assure you that the manuals and SOPs are not full of statements like "Look at the big picture, and go with what feels right." Sure, some people have a better ability to correlate lots of data subconsciously or intuitively, but most crimes are solved by relatively boring, repetitive, methodical police work. Paying attention to the details is far more effective than looking at the "big picture", especially when it's a possibility that there isn't one.
All that aside, I wasn't trying to get you to investigate the actual crime scientifically, although that would be the most sensible way to do it, if you were a CSI.
I was trying to get you to approach the presentation of your argument for what you believe happened, in a logical and scientific manner. You are of course free to present your argument in any manner you see fit. Hand waving just won't get you a lot of rational support. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 05/09/2007 05:25:16 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
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j911ob
Skeptic Friend
223 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 05:33:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by j911ob...
Since when is solving crimes about science?
Since at least a little more than 2200 years ago.
Yeah and what about crimes that dont involve forensic evidence? |
"Any pressurized can exposed to heat will explode like a grenade. Even a sealed bag of potato chips, if not melted by direct flame, can 'pop' with quite a report." - Kookbreaker at JREF, responding to reports of explosions in the towers. |
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911 conspiracies
Topic Locked
