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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2007 : 19:51:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
From todays paper, I dont have a link but this should be able to be found easily if necessary.
"New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson who has called for dramatic reductions in the use of fossil fuels reported in his federal financial statement holdings between $250,000 and $500,000 in stock options, and owns between $100,000 and $250,000 in stock in Valero Energy Corp.- the nations largest independent oil refinery."
Dramatic reductions in fossil fuels would increase his wealth dramatically as restrictions in the use of a product that is desired will increase its value. |
Wow. I can only guess that last statement was made in complete ignorance of Richardson's plan, the law of supply-and-demand, and the very sentence you quoted.
Richardson is trying to reduce demand for fossil fuels. What happens when you have a product that fewer and fewer people want? You have to drop the price to get people to buy it. Richardson's calls "for dramatic reductions in the use of fossil fuels" (quoted from your quote, with emphasis) will do nothing but reduce the value of his stock. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 20:11:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave---"Then what should you do when someone tells you that what you state is the "logic of mmgw" is wrong?"
--I respectfully disagree, and show data which supports my view. |
No, you haven't. Not since I pointed out the flaw in your argument. You only asked a question and made a speculative statement, both of which showed the depth of your ignorance of the entire global warming subject."Have you done so regarding the CO2 and temperature cycles?"
--Historical data shows temp increases cause co2 increases; in fact others have posted science that supports this fact.
Are you stating that temp increases do not increase co2 levels? |
Not at all. I am pointing out that things other than temperature also increase CO2 levels, and that global warming is caused by things other than CO2. That you don't seem to understand this is how I know you are momentally ignorant of the subject you're attempting to call a hoax.
Standing alone, your claim that "Historical data shows temp increases cause co2 increases" attempts to make a simple-minded causation argument out of a complex correlation of data. Historical data shows a correlation between temperature increases and CO2 increases, but those graphs alone do not, and cannot show a causal link. To demonstrate a causal link, you have to show the mechanisms involved, and you haven't done so.
So, what are the mechanisms which cause global atmospheric temperature increases? Yes, I mean all of the ones we know. What are the mechanisms that cause an increase in atmospheric CO2 levels? Again, I want you to list all of them. Then list the mechanisms which cause atmospheric cooling, and also reductions in atmospheric CO2. Those would be the four primary groups of mechanisms which went into causing the data upon which the graphs are based.
Do your homework on this, and we might get somewhere in this discussion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 20:14:25 [Permalink]
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Dave--- These will be quotes from your link to the governors plan with my reasoned response.
"By 2020, dramatically reduce oil consumption by as much as 10 million through a series of bold measures"
--- 12 years is plenty on time to divest; in the short term people still need oil energy
"Establish a national energy innovation trust fund with a one-time funding commitment to provide needed research and technology support, invest in our world-leading institutions and science and technology programs."
--- Tax money
"Immediately return to the international negotiating table and support mandatory limits on global warming pollution and keep atmospheric carbon below 450 parts per million."
---limits increase the value of a product
"Cooperate with the European Union, the World Bank, the Asian partnership, the UN and our allies around the world to finance the small incremental cost of "doing it right.""
--- Tax money
"Renew our relations with our largest oil supplies, Mexico and Canada, which supply about 20% of our oil and create a North American Energy Council to stabilize the oil and gas trade, build a continental electrical grid, help bring energy resources and productivity to market throughout the continent and develop a regional system for carbon trading."
---North American Union (almost)
This quote is great from Bill: "Now I want to bring that experience to the task of freeing the United States from its status as international hostage to costly energy...and from the tyranny of oil dependence."
As he is selling the oil does that make him a tyrant?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 20:27:54 [Permalink]
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Dave---"Historical data shows a correlation between temperature increases and CO2 increases, but those graphs alone do not, and cannot show a causal link."
--I agree, that why when people point to this data and say "look man causes co2 therefore man causes warming" I claim they are incorrect.
"So, what are the mechanisms which cause global atmospheric temperature increases?"
--The suns radiation levels would be the largest factor.
"What are the mechanisms that cause an increase in atmospheric CO2 levels?
--largest would be as temp increases in the oceans more co2 is released.
"Then list the mechanisms which cause atmospheric cooling"
--The Suns decreasing in its radiance would cause cooling of the air and the oceans, which in turn would cause less co2 to be released from the oceans.
These are not all of the causes, just the most important ones.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 20:37:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"By 2020, dramatically reduce oil consumption by as much as 10 million through a series of bold measures"
--- 12 years is plenty on time to divest; in the short term people still need oil energy |
And as soon as he divests himself of the stock, he will no longer be profiting from oil income. Are you going to claim that if he does that, he will stop promoting this plan of his? If so, you're a mind-reader. If not, then your argument is pointless."Establish a national energy innovation trust fund with a one-time funding commitment to provide needed research and technology support, invest in our world-leading institutions and science and technology programs."
--- Tax money |
Tax money fed back into the economy. Or do you think that the scientists and technologists necessary to implement this portion of Richardson's plan will all be highly frugal?"Immediately return to the international negotiating table and support mandatory limits on global warming pollution and keep atmospheric carbon below 450 parts per million."
---limits increase the value of a product |
Where in Richardson's financial disclosure does he have a vested interest in an increase in the value of global warming pollution?"Cooperate with the European Union, the World Bank, the Asian partnership, the UN and our allies around the world to finance the small incremental cost of "doing it right.""
--- Tax money |
Again: so what?"Renew our relations with our largest oil supplies, Mexico and Canada, which supply about 20% of our oil and create a North American Energy Council to stabilize the oil and gas trade, build a continental electrical grid, help bring energy resources and productivity to market throughout the continent and develop a regional system for carbon trading."
---North American Union (almost) |
Completely irrelevant.This quote is great from Bill: "Now I want to bring that experience to the task of freeing the United States from its status as international hostage to costly energy...and from the tyranny of oil dependence."
As he is selling the oil does that make him a tyrant? |
Yes, and he seems to want to change his evil ways. But to you, that just makes him more evil, doesn't it?
Hey, why didn't you put your Richardson post in the other thread? Why did you bring politics into this one, if it's the one that's supposed to be about the science? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 20:46:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave---"Historical data shows a correlation between temperature increases and CO2 increases, but those graphs alone do not, and cannot show a causal link."
--I agree, that why when people point to this data and say "look man causes co2 therefore man causes warming" I claim they are incorrect. |
That's why people shouldn't point to those graphs and say that. Them doing so, however mistakenly, isn't itself evidence that global warming is a hoax. You claiming that that sort of thing is MMGW "logic" is itself incorrect, but you seem unwilling to admit it."So, what are the mechanisms which cause global atmospheric temperature increases?"
--The suns radiation levels would be the largest factor. |
Apparently, you're unwilling to do the necessary homework to properly discuss the science. The "most important" causes aren't enough to make an informed examination of the effects. If you won't consider all of the causes, then you'll likely come to an incorrect conclusion, since "most important" can and does change over time.
So nevermind. If you're not going to try, neither will I. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 20:51:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
So nevermind. If you're not going to try, neither will I. |
Lookout, Dave, this is where he claims victory and does a little  thing. He doesn't want to win on merit, he just wants to beat you into submission be being illogical, irrational, and blind to actual data. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 21:02:49 [Permalink]
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Dave--- Are you saying that the sun is not the largest factor in warming the earth?
I answered your questions with correct answers.
Can you show me where any answers were incorrect?
Can you show me outside of those answers proof of mmgw?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 21:22:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Lookout, Dave, this is where he claims victory and does a little thing. He doesn't want to win on merit, he just wants to beat you into submission be being illogical, irrational, and blind to actual data. |
I know, I saw him do it to you. But he's made it clear to everyone reading that he just doesn't care about anything other than being contrarian. He's even brought politics back into the thread he said would be for science. I just don't have time for his brand of childish game anymore. I basically asked for a "good faith" gesture on his part for a science discussion and I received a handful of poop in reply, so it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that the science does not sit with the likes of JEROME.
Hey, have you ever watched a teenager wrestle with a four-year-old? The teenager (let's call him Al) knows that the four-year-old (Ben) is no match for him, but at first wants the kid to have fun and feel strong. So Al puts on a tremendous show of being thrown around the living room by little Ben, and Al himself is having fun getting Ben to laugh and do little strongman poses.
But a few minutes go by, and the novelty has worn off for Al. He's still "wrestling" Ben, but doing so while sitting in one spot on the floor, only engaging with Ben when Ben gets within arms' reach. Ben, of course, is still cackling like a madman and giddily throwing himself at Al, 'cause there's no end to this game for him.
And then you check back a few minutes later still, and the commercials have ended and "Road Rules" is back on MTV, and Al is laying on his stomach with his head propped up on his hands, intent on the TV. Meanwhile, Ben has one of Al's ankles in a stranglehold and is working it for all he's worth. Ben looks up and screeches at you, "Look, I'm winning!" Al probably doesn't even hear it.
It's not submission, Cune. It's boredom. JEROME has made it clear that he is incapable of bringing anything to the living-room floor that's at all challenging. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 21:25:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave--- Are you saying that the sun is not the largest factor in warming the earth?
I answered your questions with correct answers.
Can you show me where any answers were incorrect? |
I asked you to list all the causes for each of four phenomena. You listed one cause each. You fail because you handed in incomplete answers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 21:44:07 [Permalink]
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Dave---"I asked you to list all the causes for each of four phenomena. You listed one cause each. You fail because you handed in incomplete answers."
I listed the causes of most influence.
There are other factors that have little influence in comparison to the sun and the oceans on global climate.
If you would like to show me where these multitude of factors supersede the influence of the sun and the oceans I am all ears.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 21:49:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave---"I asked you to list all the causes for each of four phenomena. You listed one cause each. You fail because you handed in incomplete answers."
I listed the causes of most influence. |
I know that. That's why you failed. You refused to complete the assignment as directed. I even explained why you would receive a failing grade for doing so, but you appear to have ignored that warning. Too bad for you. Maybe you'll try again next semester, after Summer break. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 22:06:09 [Permalink]
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Dave---Your like a experienced predator that can sense ... something ... the problem is its not prey.
Come on Dave, I stand by this statement:
"There are other factors that have little influence in comparison to the sun and the oceans on global climate."
If you would like to show me where these multitude of factors supersede the influence of the sun and the oceans I am all ears.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 05:06:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
From todays paper, I dont have a link but this should be able to be found easily if necessary.
"New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson who has called for dramatic reductions in the use of fossil fuels reported in his federal financial statement holdings between $250,000 and $500,000 in stock options, and owns between $100,000 and $250,000 in stock in Valero Energy Corp.- the nations largest independent oil refinery."
Dramatic reductions in fossil fuels would increase his wealth dramatically as restrictions in the use of a product that is desired will increase its value.
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That is one of the most hilariously stupid things I've ever heard or read. You totally demolish your own point, then carry on heedlessly! Who needs to argue with you, when you do such a fine job by your lonesome?
It's time for you to own up, Jerome da Gnome. Al Gore hired you to come here and put on this incredibly bad showing for the "deniers," didn't he?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/18/2007 05:13:09 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 08:00:53 [Permalink]
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HalfMooner---Do you really believe that restriction of use of a product that is desired would not increase its value?
If you would like I could explain basic economics and show many examples of this from history.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Is Global Warming a Scam (part 2)
Topic Locked
