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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 18:54:49 [Permalink]
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Dude:
There is an objective test to determine if a statement is an opinion or an assertion of fact. I attempted to explain it, in detail, in that other thread. No matter how I parse her statement (with all of the attempts at qualification), the kindest characterization I can give it is a false assertion based on faulty induction. |
Oh, I agree that her “opinion” was based on faulty induction, just so's ya know…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:07:51 [Permalink]
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| Oh, I agree that her “opinion” was based on faulty induction, just so's ya know… |
Then you agree that she wasn't stating an opinion! Finally!
Induction is a process used to reach conclusions, not opinions.
"I think it is too hot outside today" -is an opinion. No use of induction or deduction, no conclusions.
"The majority of greens are magical thinkers." -NOT an opinion, but a false conclusion reached via faulty induction.
Even adding a blatant qualifier to that, "I believe" or "In my opinion", wouldn't actually turn it into an opinion. It would STILL be a conclusion.
Conclusions can be attacked, and defended. Opinions are subject to neither.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 05/24/2007 20:08:39 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:14:54 [Permalink]
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I'll add: People attempt, wrongly, to hide their conclusions behind the shroud of opinion all the time. Because of the special status of actual opinions.
Seriously, when was the last time you had an argument over the words of an actual opinion? Probably never. We argue all the time with people, over what they state as opinion, because what they are actually doing is stating conclusions.
(1 second slow Kil!)
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 05/24/2007 20:15:39 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:14:55 [Permalink]
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Opinions are often stated as conclusions. Often. Really really often...
We talked about this in the thread... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:16:44 [Permalink]
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Dude:
Seriously, when was the last time you had an argument over the words of an actual opinion? |
Now. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:18:26 [Permalink]
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No, we are arguing about conclusions and what we conclude constitutes an opinion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:20:35 [Permalink]
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| Go look at the thread. We already did this. I am not going to do it again. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:34:29 [Permalink]
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Oh what the hell...
Dictionary.com
o·pin·ion
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
An opinion is a belief or judgment that falls short of absolute conviction, certainty, or positive knowledge; it is a conclusion that certain facts, ideas, etc., are probably true or likely to prove so:
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And so on…
And in this case, usage matters. What I mean is since opinions are often expressed as conclusions (with a qualifier) the dictionary can be rightfully used as a source.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:36:09 [Permalink]
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Here's the thing: nobody professes an opinion that they don't think is true unless they're acting, joking, drunk, lying, have a head wound, etc.. As such, all opinions are at least tentative assertions of fact. Even "it's too hot out" is a shorthand for "I have come to the conclusion that it is too hot out for my own personal comfort."
If we have evidence which contradicts someone's opinion, on any subject, should we not bring it up? For example, "it's only 65 degrees out, you're just complaining because you don't want to weed the damn garden." In such a case, maintaining that it's your opinion that it's too hot will not save you from picking up a hoe unless you can keep such an argument going until nightfall and/or divorce court.
Only those opinions for which there is not some independent, objective measure should be considered "off limits." All others should be fair game.
We don't let people get away with "it's my opinion that God exists." My wife won't give my contrived "opinions" on why I shouldn't do something she wants me to do any leeway, either. Why should we have given an opinion about the Greens a free ride? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:51:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Here's the thing: nobody professes an opinion that they don't think is true unless they're acting, joking, drunk, lying, have a head wound, etc.. As such, all opinions are at least tentative assertions of fact. Even "it's too hot out" is a shorthand for "I have come to the conclusion that it is too hot out for my own personal comfort."
If we have evidence which contradicts someone's opinion, on any subject, should we not bring it up? For example, "it's only 65 degrees out, you're just complaining because you don't want to weed the damn garden." In such a case, maintaining that it's your opinion that it's too hot will not save you from picking up a hoe unless you can keep such an argument going until nightfall and/or divorce court.
Only those opinions for which there is not some independent, objective measure should be considered "off limits." All others should be fair game.
We don't let people get away with "it's my opinion that God exists." My wife won't give my contrived "opinions" on why I shouldn't do something she wants me to do any leeway, either. Why should we have given an opinion about the Greens a free ride?
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Exactly. And I said many times in the thread that bgal's opinion could be challenged. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 20:55:47 [Permalink]
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| I can't believe this is being rehashed. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 22:02:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I can't believe this is being rehashed.
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It's an internet forum. The drama is most of the fun! :) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 22:30:23 [Permalink]
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I'll go ahead and concede my argument about opinions, in this argument. It isn't as relavent as the fact that no assertion which can be evaluated in objective terms should be considered off limits, just because it is qualified with an "IMO".
There are various usages of the word being thrown about here, despite the context of this argument which should have obviously precluded any usage of "opinion" that entailed conclusions being stated with non-subjective modifiers.
(I'd still contend that within a critical thinking context assertions of fact with non-subjective modifiers should not be labled as opinion, because the label is an attempt to falsely conflate objective statements with subjective statements, thereby shielding them from criticism) (but for the sake of argument I'm not going to insist on this definition from here on out, I don't need it to make my point)
That still leaves us with several people here defending an unsupportable assertion of fact. Even if you want to call it an opinion, then we can just say that opinions which assert facts should be held to standards of evidence. The astonishing fact remains: Members of this forum who have burned down conservative and religious people's "opinions" because they were stated in non-subjective terms (thus opening them to valid criticism) have defended the same type of unsupportable "opinion" when the subject matter was closer to their own personal politics.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 00:19:19 [Permalink]
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Dude:
The astonishing fact remains: Members of this forum who have burned down conservative and religious people's "opinions" because they were stated in non-subjective terms (thus opening them to valid criticism) have defended the same type of unsupportable "opinion" when the subject matter was closer to their own personal politics. |
Okay Dude, that's it. I have already told you that politics had nothing to do with my take on Beskeptigal's opinion/assertion or whatever word floats your boat. I'm tired of the bullshit. I was willing to discuss, once again, opinion vs. assertion and also what rules apply to different kinds of conclusions. But hey, I am really tired of being called a liar, which is exactly what you are saying I am in the above quote. So, I'm out.
Have a nice day…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 06:44:46 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
Okay Dude, that's it. I have already told you that politics had nothing to do with my take on Beskeptigal's opinion/assertion or whatever word floats your boat. I'm tired of the bullshit. I was willing to discuss, once again, opinion vs. assertion and also what rules apply to different kinds of conclusions. But hey, I am really tired of being called a liar, which is exactly what you are saying I am in the above quote. So, I'm out.
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Hrrmm... ok. I thought I was wording it a bit more neutrally than that. I'm not commenting on your motivation, I'm just commenting on the correlation. I take you at your word when you say that your personal politics didn't influence your decision to allow beskeptigal a free pass on making unsupportable and derogatory assertions about another political party.
So I have to ask, what did?
I've already conceded the usage you want of "opinion", but I would like to know why you didn't (in that thread) hold beskeptigal's "opinion" to the same standard you hold Billscott's opinions.
Surely you would agree that an (in the context of skepticism and critical thinking) opinion which also asserts a fact, should be treated the same as an assertion of fact. I know you use this very same standard for evaluating the opinions of political and religious conservatives who post here.
As skeptics and critical thinkers we should not allow anyone to shield an assertion of fact with the label of "opinion".
In that other thread, before it got nasty, several members of this forum did just that. Whatever your actual motivations for doing so are irrelevant at this point (beyond satisfying my curiosity anyway).
If the politics folder here is going to be anything other than a liberal fluff-fest and conservative bash-fest, we have to hold ourselves to the same standards we use when talking to Mozina, verlch, Jerome, ergo123, j911ob, and Billscott about their respective claims.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bringing personal arguments home
Topic Locked
