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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2007 : 17:38:52
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Michael Egnor, a neurosurgeon, is a new "spokesperson" for the Discovery Institute - the worlds leading(?) promoter of intelligent design. In a new article posted at evolutionnews, he makes some rather interesting comments.
What Egnor wants to say is that materialistic science (that's just science to you and me) can't explain altruistic behaviour and that "A satisfactory explanation of altruism intrinsically requires a method open to immaterial causes."
What he is actually saying is quite different:
| For one process to cause another there must be a point of contact, in the sense that the processes linked in cause and effect must share properties in common. |
| The brain is a material substance. It has location, dimensions, weight, temperature, and energy. It also has parts; it has a superior surface, a medial boundary, a left side and a right side. As such, it can interact with other things that have similar properties- things that have matter and parts and energy. |
| Altruism, in contrast, has no matter or energy. It has no ‘location', no weight, no dimension, no temperature. It has no properties of matter. Altruism entails things like purpose and judgment, which aren't material. |
Here, Egnor is talking dualism - the idea that brain and thought are separate entities. But although he seemingly rejects dualism...
| Materialistic scientists rightfully scorn pseudoscience like telekinesis, yet the view that ideas are caused by brain matter is merely a mirror image of the claims made on behalf of telekinesis. We know that Uri Geller can't really bend a spoon just by thinking about it, because the thought 'I'm bending this spoon' and the spoon itself share no properties in common. |
... he goes on and proposes that it is actually necessary to invoke it to explain altruism:
| A satisfactory explanation of altruism intrinsically requires a method open to immaterial causes. |
Mind and spoon share no properties. Altruism and brain share no properties.
Is Egnor as confused as I think he is?
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 19:05:33 [Permalink]
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| Is Egnor as confused as I think he is? |
Probably more confused than you think he is. I think we've had another thread on some of his stupidity.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 23:39:36 [Permalink]
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Egnor indeed seems a numbskull, but appearances can deceive.
It appears that he can't keep track of things he's trying to think about, or compare. So, in this example, he's either "proven" telekinesis, or "disproven" that altruism can exist -- it's hard to tell which. What a muddled mind. (Or is he trying to muddle other peoples' minds?)
He's very confused here in his argument's set-up: 1) The human brain is material and can only do material things. 2) Telekinesis is immaterial. 3) Therefore the human brain cannot do telekinesis.
Then, by substitution, he tries to give us: 1) The human brain is material and can only do material things. 2) Altruism is immaterial. 3) Therefore the human brain cannot do altruism.
The problem is that Egnor ignores the difference in kind between telekinesis, which is a hypothetical movement of physical things by mental volition, and altruism, which is essentially software our brains may employ to sacrifice our own interests in support of those of others.
Telekinesis, if it existed, would be a physical phenomenon, linking the physical brain to the movement of physical objects. But Egnor confuses this by imagining and inserting an "immaterial" will to do telekinesis.
This "will to do telekinesis" would be just another thought process, the running of a physical neural electrochemical software routine. Just like altruism is.
Around 1980, I attended a Western Electric class in Ohio, to learn the ins and outs of DEC 11/70 minicomputer maintenance. One intensive lecture took the class step by step through the lowest possible level of programming: On our detailed circuit diagrams, we traced a single machine instruction through all the microcode instructions that were required to make it function. We followed each signal with our index fingers. For a few minutes that one day, I truly understood how computers worked. Their "thoughts" are far from immaterial. Software is just the electrical function of hardware, as human thought is the electrochemical functioning of neurons.
Neurosurgeon Egnor doesn't seem to understand this concept, preferring to insert the conveniently theistic notion of "immateriality." Given his field of study, I suspect Egnor's not so much confused as he being deliberately confusing -- in pursuit of pious fraud.
Actually, Egnor's argument is best left as is. Only by confusing people can he make his theistic point. If he worked the kinks out of his argument, there'd be nothing left as an argument in favor of theism. As it stands, ignorant people can point to this pile of shit and exclaim that it was all excreted by a genuine, God-fearing neurosurgeon.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/06/2007 23:43:34 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 01:28:04 [Permalink]
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Well, he certainly muddled my mind, not a difficult task I grant, but really....
Whenever these noisy popenjays start yammering about "materialistic" anything, the lights on my bullshit detector begin a chaotic flashing and it's siren wails with a sound reminesent to an ambulance in a hurry. It has yet to give a false alarm.
I think that ID is dead. It's corpse remains lively, but that will cease in due course. It has always been something of a half-assed philosophy anyway, neither sacred nor secular; neither fish nor fowl. So Egnor is a pretty good representative for them, I'd think.
And anyone who can't make a pun out of that isn't trying.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 14:42:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Well, he certainly muddled my mind, not a difficult task I grant, but really....
I think that ID is dead. It's corpse remains lively, but that will cease in due course.
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Sort of like a chiken right after you chop its head off! 
Cheers
perrodetokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2007 : 18:18:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
Originally posted by filthy
Well, he certainly muddled my mind, not a difficult task I grant, but really....
I think that ID is dead. It's corpse remains lively, but that will cease in due course.
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Sort of like a chiken right after you chop its head off!
Cheers
perrodetokio
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Heh, pretty much. But at least when the chicken stops running, you have Sunday dinner. With ID, you won't even get a stale sandwich. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 21:31:46 [Permalink]
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Egnor is at it again. This time he is even worse:
| If altruism is located in the brain, then some changes in location of the brain must, to use a mathematical term, 'map' to changes in altruism. That is, if you move your brain, you move your altruism in some discernable way. And ‘moving' altruism means changing its properties. It won't do to say that moving altruism changes its property of ‘location,' because ‘location' of altruism is the issue. That begs the question. |
It does beg a question: what mind altering substances is this guy on?
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 22:17:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Egnor is at it again. This time he is even worse:
| If altruism is located in the brain, then some changes in location of the brain must, to use a mathematical term, 'map' to changes in altruism. That is, if you move your brain, you move your altruism in some discernable way. And ‘moving' altruism means changing its properties. It won't do to say that moving altruism changes its property of ‘location,' because ‘location' of altruism is the issue. That begs the question. |
It does beg a question: what mind altering substances is this guy on?
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This is some of the most bizarre stuff I've ever read.
Wait a second. I just moved my head a bit, and I now have a different take on it: It's bullshit.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/14/2007 22:17:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/15/2007 : 02:49:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Egnor is at it again. This time he is even worse:
| If altruism is located in the brain, then some changes in location of the brain must, to use a mathematical term, 'map' to changes in altruism. That is, if you move your brain, you move your altruism in some discernable way. And ‘moving' altruism means changing its properties. It won't do to say that moving altruism changes its property of ‘location,' because ‘location' of altruism is the issue. That begs the question. |
It does beg a question: what mind altering substances is this guy on?
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Holy mack'l Andy! What the hell is this dingbat trying to say?
Are we sure he's really an neurosurgeon? Don't those guys have to have virtually an over-education, and be at least as well skilled in coherent thought as any scientist? No wonder ID is going down the tubes.
Yeesh!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 16:51:55 [Permalink]
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I just can't stop reading the stuff this Egnor guy comes out with. I'm like a moth to a flame. I go trough cycles of disbelief, laughter and sheer bewilderment as to how anyone can possibly come up with the stuff he does. In this latest escapade of his he claims to have "a method of determining whether the mind can be caused entirely by matter" (fun to read on it's own), but he then sidesteps it completely by claiming that it would be impossible anyway - by definition. He does this in the same two-sentence paragraph.
| The Verizon accepter shows that there is a method of determining whether the mind can be caused entirely by matter. If the mind has a property, such as meaning, that is not a property of matter, then matter, while perhaps necessary to the mind, is insufficient to cause it. |
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Egnor on Dualism
