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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2007 : 14:14:01
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhm0ozrpHJ8&mode=related&search=
Why can not the energy produced by harnessed?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 14:56:40 [Permalink]
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If you had any kind of decent high school education, you should be able to answer that question yourself.
What is done in the YouTube video.
(And why your question contains an erroneous assumption)
Problems with storage.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 16:41:55 [Permalink]
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Mabuse, I am well aware of the technique of electrolysis. Your answer contains the erroneous assumption that the hydrogen needs to be stored. Why can not the hydrogen be produced as needed?
Does the explosion; caused by the burning of the gas produced, result in more energy than the battery is expending?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 17:09:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Does the explosion; caused by the burning of the gas produced, result in more energy than the battery is expending?
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No |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:20:07 [Permalink]
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Mabuse, I am well aware of the technique of electrolysis. Your answer contains the erroneous assumption that the hydrogen needs to be stored. Why can not the hydrogen be produced as needed?
Does the explosion; caused by the burning of the gas produced, result in more energy than the battery is expending? |
OK, maybe your not a troll, maybe your just not the sharpest tool in the shed. I don't mean that as a put down necessarily - I'm not that smart, I'm just educated.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:44:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Does the explosion; caused by the burning of the gas produced, result in more energy than the battery is expending?
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No
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Thanks for the informative information. Is there a reasoning behind your no.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:51:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
Mabuse, I am well aware of the technique of electrolysis. Your answer contains the erroneous assumption that the hydrogen needs to be stored. Why can not the hydrogen be produced as needed?
Does the explosion; caused by the burning of the gas produced, result in more energy than the battery is expending? |
OK, maybe your not a troll, maybe your just not the sharpest tool in the shed. I don't mean that as a put down necessarily - I'm not that smart, I'm just educated.
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What has your education taught you that explains whether the energy produced in the ignition of the hydrogen gas is more or less than the energy needed to create the hydrogen gas.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 20:04:26 [Permalink]
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What you seem to be imagining, Jerome, would be a perpetual motion machine (PMM). As such, it would violate the First and/or Second Laws of Thermodynamics.
Untold numbers of people, whether or not understanding/believing in the Law of Conservation of Energy, have decided that their PMM design ought to work, and gone on to build them. (My own grandfather built a wonderfully complex mechanical PMM contraption that never quite worked.) In practice, whether operating through mechanical, electrical, magnetic, chemical means, or a combination of any or all all these or other principles, the inefficiencies mean that "free energy" cannot be tapped. In fact, even without energy being tapped from them, PMMs will run down in time due to these inefficiencies.
As with all other forms of PMMs, one using electrolysis to produce hydrogen and oxygen, which is then burned to produce electricity for powering more electrolysis, suffers from fatal inefficiencies at all stages of the cycle. But you've either failed to read, or have failed to comprehend, Dr. Mabuse's kindly provided link explaining the inefficiencies of electrolysis, haven't you, Jerome?
Here's a reliable rule of thumb: If you see a "free energy" system, either an error or a fraud is involved.
I doubt I got through to you any more than anyone else here ever has, but perhaps lurkers may benefit from my layman's explanation. (Being a layman, it's the only kind I have.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/09/2007 20:06:54 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 20:56:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Mabuse, I am well aware of the technique of electrolysis. |
This is clearly false. Had you bothered to even glance at the link provided by the good Dr. Mabuse you would not have demonstrated your ignorance with the question of efficiency. | Your answer contains the erroneous assumption that the hydrogen needs to be stored. Why can not the hydrogen be produced as needed? |
Because it is inefficient. It would take more energy than you get out of it. Again, had you bothered to read the very short article provided, you would not have to ask this question. | Does the explosion; caused by the burning of the gas produced, result in more energy than the battery is expending? |
No. Here is the answer that Ghost_Skeptic assumed you would be smart enough to read for yourself: from wikipedia
The theoretical maximum efficiency is between 80–94%.[2]. The theoretical maximum considers the total amount of energy absorbed by both the hydrogen and oxygen. These values only refer to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency is more like 25–40%. |
Emphasis added -- B10
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:35:29 [Permalink]
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Thank you both, Halfmooner and Boron for your responses.
The question I have if energy is finite and energy conversion always loses energy that would mean at some point energy would cease to exist.
This also bring into question were did energy start?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:49:06 [Permalink]
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Stop trolling Jerome. You aren't even that good at it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:56:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Stop trolling Jerome. You aren't even that good at it.
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Dude, how is talking about energy production trolling?
Dude if energy is finite and energy conversion always loses energy will at some point all energy be expended?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 22:11:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The question I have if energy is finite and energy conversion always loses energy that would mean at some point energy would cease to exist. |
The term "efficiency" relates to useable energy. The remainder is "lost" as heat. It doesn't cease to exist, it's just no longer available to do work.| ...if energy is finite and energy conversion always loses energy will at some point all energy be expended? |
Check out the heat death of the universe. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 22:57:55 [Permalink]
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Dave very interesting about "heat death of the universe", thanks.
As all energy conversion is inefficient than the new question becomes:
Is there a more efficient means of harnessing energy from water than from oil or coal?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 23:07:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
As all energy conversion is inefficient than the new question becomes:
Is there a more efficient means of harnessing energy from water than from oil or coal? |
I'd have to say that both dams and water wheels would be front-runners in terms of cost/benefit ratios, since gravity is provided free by the planet and evaporation is provided free by the Sun, just so long as local climate change doesn't screw up your source. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 23:33:01 [Permalink]
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Dave, yes, but a more transportable from of energy. Breaking the bond of water and using its parts.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Low cost energy from water?
