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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2007 : 11:46:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
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Not all things regarded as "bad" are regarded as unethical. For example, most people will agree that when a baby dies of a horrible genetic disease, that is a bad thing. But fault or blame isn't typically attributed to anyone. Without a conscious being making a choice, I fail to see how ethical judgments are very meaningfully applicable. |
I could not have said this better myself. Originally posted by Dave W.
And so continuing, my decision to check out this "new Internet thing" years before finding the SFN becomes part of the equation, too? And so would my interest in computers, which was spawned years before that? |
Yes.| Well, what I was really looking for is an acknowledgement that from your point-of-view, just because something is an "action," it's not necessarily elligible for ethical consideration. |
Good point. I had not previously considered that part, but I would have to agree with your assessment of my position. | Could not ethics also be involved when one chooses to encourage a certain feeling? |
Absolutely.| The number-one definition provided by marf (and so Dictionary.com) is nothing more than "a system of moral principles." Different cultures, and even different groups within a culture, will have developed different ethical systems due to differing priorities and differing customs (among other differences). To exclude some system because it includes things that you think it should not is (A) to call "a system of moral principles" not an ethic, and (B) to impose your own value system when deciding what's an ethic and what isn't. |
I disagree. Some things are amoral by their very nature: you can attempt to assign a moral value to them all you want, but it won't apply. Please note I am not applying any value system, I am only attempting to assign to the realm of ethics that which belongs. | No particular ethical system has to be rational. While the study of ethics should be rational and scientific to the extent possible, the ethics under study may in fact be silly or dangerous (see "Christianity"). |
I agree completely. | My own ethical system says that phenomena which do not occur due to any conscious choice will not be elligible for ethical consideration. |
I would say that your intellect, after reviewing the definition of "ethic" and determining to what it may be applied, has made this decision, rather than your ethical system. | I've examined the arguments for and against such a position, and have decided that such a principle would be better for the world as a whole, and so have incorporated it into my own ethic. |
With the exception of your very last word, I agree.| But that does not, and cannot, mean that such a principle belongs within the very definition of the word 'ethics'. |
I still disagree. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 13:01:01 [Permalink]
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Its all you now Dave_W, cause I'm done smackin my head into the brick wall that apparently seperates the concept of ethics from applied ethics.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 14:27:15 [Permalink]
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Don't have much time right now, but...Originally posted by Boron10
| I've examined the arguments for and against such a position, and have decided that such a principle would be better for the world as a whole, and so have incorporated it into my own ethic. |
With the exception of your very last word, I agree. |
What word would you replace "ethic" with? How is my realization that it is unfair to judge people by things they cannot control not a moral principle that I have incorporated into my personal system of ethics? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 15:46:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
What word would you replace "ethic" with? |
I am not sure.
Again, perhaps I am wrong about this whole thing. It could be there is no word for something that is considered "bad" but is not ethically judged, like a disease or a fig tree, because the concept doesn't exist.| How is my realization that it is unfair to judge people by things they cannot control not a moral principle that I have incorporated into my personal system of ethics? |
I did not interpret your statement to mean "unfair;" rather, it seemed to agree with my point that it is not applicable. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 18:15:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
I did not interpret your statement to mean "unfair;" rather, it seemed to agree with my point that it is not applicable. |
Nonono. I don't have much time, but would like to take this slowly, anyway.
"It is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is itself a moral principle.
Can we agree on that? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:35:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Don't have much time right now, but...Originally posted by Boron10
| I've examined the arguments for and against such a position, and have decided that such a principle would be better for the world as a whole, and so have incorporated it into my own ethic. |
With the exception of your very last word, I agree. |
What word would you replace "ethic" with? How is my realization that it is unfair to judge people by things they cannot control not a moral principle that I have incorporated into my personal system of ethics?
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Try ethos Dave - since ethos is the system by which an individual, group, or society decides its ethics. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:45:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
"It is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is itself a moral principle.
Can we agree on that?
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Good question. For, perhaps, the vast majority of people, I would say yes. However, there will always exist those who will judge based on a different value set that even uncontrolled actions are unethical.
My brother, for one, is a perfect example. While clinically depressed and not under treatment, my brother determined that all I needed to do was get out and do something, as long as it was something of which he approved. Which did not mean going back to school, since that is 'a waste of time.'
Enough about that. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 21:05:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Trish
Originally posted by Dave W.
"It is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is itself a moral principle.
Can we agree on that? |
Good question. For, perhaps, the vast majority of people, I would say yes. However, there will always exist those who will judge based on a different value set that even uncontrolled actions are unethical. |
Ah-HA!
I see where part of the disconnect is.
When I say, "this is a moral principle," I do not mean it as opposed to "this is an immoral principle." I mean, "this is a principle of morality." I mean that it is a rule with which one may decide what is good or bad, without any judgement on whether the rule itself is a good or bad one.
To say that "'it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control' is a moral principle" is simply to declare that "it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is a principle by which one might measure the morality of an event or person.
If you choose to live by the principle that it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control, then you will try to avoid doing so. If you don't choose to live by the principle that it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control, then you will go ahead and perhaps decide that people with acne or a limp or who cry at movies are "bad," while those with naturally curly hair or a name ending in E are "good."
But whether you live by such a principle or not (or whether you agree with it or not), it should be obvious that "it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is a moral principle.
For other examples, "thou shalt not commit adultery" is a moral principle, and so is "do what thou will shall be the whole of the law." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 21:59:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Dave_W asked:
| But I'll ask again: is not being nice doing you or anyone else any good? |
Sure. I disagree with Val that the philosophy of Ghandi (complete non-violence) is effective in every situation. IMO the best way to respond to an attack is to punch back.
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The philosophy of Ghandhi is not effective in every situation. I did not mean to imply that in any way. But in argumentation, not giving in to abuse is far more effective than just responding in kind. It gives you no intellectual high ground nor does it show your opponent for who they are. If both respondents are squalling like a bunch of two year olds, no one listens to the argument. They just comment on how mean spirited the conversation has gotten.
Sure you can call them on it, but when the exchanges degrade into nothing more than namecalling and foul language, it has to stop somewhere.
With my dance card filled with a major software release this past Friday, I have not been able to moderate this board as well as I would have liked. I apologize for not being around as much. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 05:12:54 [Permalink]
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| But whether you live by such a principle or not (or whether you agree with it or not), it should be obvious that "it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is a moral principle. |
I get what you're saying. Thanks. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 05:17:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
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Not all things regarded as "bad" are regarded as unethical. For example, most people will agree that when a baby dies of a horrible genetic disease, that is a bad thing. But fault or blame isn't typically attributed to anyone. Without a conscious being making a choice, I fail to see how ethical judgments are very meaningfully applicable. |
{inserts wrench into the works}
God is not exempt from this type of ethical quandry, and is frequently judged on this type of issue. I am so going to kick his ass. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 05:44:01 [Permalink]
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BPSmurf| God is not exempt from this type of ethical quandry, and is frequently judged on this type of issue. I am so going to kick his ass. |
IF God exists and IF he is a sentient being capable of choices, I would totally agree.
Yeah, what a jerk! |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/22/2007 05:44:34 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:36:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Nonono. I don't have much time, but would like to take this slowly, anyway.
"It is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is itself a moral principle.
Can we agree on that? |
Yes. I now understand what you meant, and agree with that part of it. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:36:29 [Permalink]
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19190916/
Heres a nice article on Doctors refusing care on ethical/moral grounds. More fuel for the fire. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 13:32:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by Dave W.
Nonono. I don't have much time, but would like to take this slowly, anyway.
"It is unfair to judge people on things they can't control" is itself a moral principle.
Can we agree on that? |
Yes. I now understand what you meant, and agree with that part of it. |
Okay. Now, would you agree that it is unfair to judge people on things they can't control? In other words, do you abide by that moral principle? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Can Feelings be Unethical?
