|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2007 : 12:10:52 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Fripp
10) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. (Keep this one in mind next time you are tempted to boil a goat.) |
This has been the source of much discussion, and it is the reason behind some of the Jewish kosher laws (no cheese on your burger, for instance). |
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 14:33:12 [Permalink]
|
| When I have kids, I'll definitly not boil them in anything, milk or otherwise. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 15:03:08 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
When I have kids, I'll definitly not boil them in anything, milk or otherwise.
|
Oh, but you'll think about it on occasion, and someone will judge that as ethically wrong. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:25:56 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by filthy
Very simple; we are members of a social species and as such have the "code" wired in. All social species have one, be they horses or wolves or baboons or gorillas or parrots. Religious writings have nothing to do with it beyond giving the preachers another talking point.
|
Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:27:50 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words. |
But given that they were written in Hebrew, perhaps as many as 3000 years ago, and based on even earlier legal systems, how can you possibly really know "the actual meanings of the words"?
|
Definitions of words and context of words denote meaning.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:35:34 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words.
|
I fail to see how the top 5 can be useful for moral behavior. Especially since the existence of this God is evidenced by testimonials of faith, alone.
I am the Lord thy God
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol
Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
|
Perhaps you could elucidate on the actual meaning of these words.
Or were you just talking about the big three?
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
|
But not killing, stealing, and lying are not unique to, or originate with, the bible.
|
1. place nothing you see before you as a God---allow no earthly control over the self
2. do not make a God---see number one
3. do not curse the creator thus the thing created---thus other people
4. rest every seventh day---work six
5. honor your parents---if followed all family will be treated with honor
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:41:22 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words.
If one bases their code on "the consequences of your action", one will eventually find themselves far from their origin. Much like all things from man, the pendulum swings.
|
Strange then, how do you stop yourself from molesting children Jerome? I mean its not on the list, you should be out burning down orphanages since theres no stone that tells you not to.
Sorry Jerome, you only think your morals come from TTC, Christians are just as likely to kill, steal and cheat on their wifes as anybody else.
|
The adultery provision prevents one, if followed, from molesting children.
It would depend on why one whats to burn down an orphanage. Are you going to build a new one and fire is the most effective way to remove the old building, or is this malicious which breaks various rules depending on the exact reason.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:45:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
| How does an atheist determine a moral code? |
All people learn to distinguish right from wrong through both conscious reasoning and intuitive gut feelings.
Both the core values that we use for our reasoning and our intuition are the result of cultural conditioning and individual experience and personality tendencies.
Cultural standards for morality as well as individual tendencies and preferences fall within a scope of norms that are part of human nature.
Human nature is the result of millions of years of evolution within particular environments.
|
Why did many isolated cultures develop similar standards?
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:53:49 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Jerome wrote: | I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words. |
The actual words must be interpreted. How do you derive your interpretations? For instance, if I were to read the Ten Commandements in a purely literal way, I could not derive a moral code from them because they are explicitly directed toward the male gender. In order to make them useful to myself, I must go beyond literal meaning to a broader interpretation of the spirit of the messages, so that I can assume that not coveting my neighbor's wife ALSO means not coveting my coworker's husband.
A literal interpretation of the actual words also isn't helpful when one is faced with shades of moral grey in real life. To give an example, after the Taliban took over Afghanistan, women were not allowed on the streets unescorted by a man. Women who were widows with no male children were stuck in their houses starving to death. If they dress up as men in order to go out and get food, they are lying, but is that wrong? If they steal food because they aren't allowed to work for money and have no one in the household who can work, and there are no safe charities to get food from, is that wrong? Obviously one must interpret to find some “spirit” of the commandments in order to make them useful in real life.
So how do you interpret the Ten Commandments in a manner which is objective and universal? Oh, wait, you can't. So obviously you don't only derive your moral code from the Ten Commandments. You are also influenced by culture. Also, the Ten Commandments might work as sort of vague guidelines, but obviously they are painfully insufficient when it comes to day to day ethical decisions about countless little things. For that one must develop a broader sense of ethics and morality, and that comes from cultural conditioning and personal tendencies based on your natural personality and personal experiences.
|
Neighbors house or anything in the neighbors house. Nothing pertaining to gender.
I disagree, these simple guidelines do not allow one to have an all encompassing moral code. I place few rules within my moral code. I have found that these guidelines do present the answers without too much thought consumed by if this then that sort of tennis match in ones mind.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:57:23 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words.
|
Ah, so then you find raping underage children morally acceptable? There's no commandment against it, so you must.
Of course, if that isn't the case, then maybe the claim that you get your morals from the 10 commandments is untrue, and you actually get you morals from the same place the rest of us do.
|
Adultery prohibition. It once meant sex outside of marriage. The definition has changed.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:59:07 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words.
If one bases their code on "the consequences of your action", one will eventually find themselves far from their origin. Much like all things from man, the pendulum swings. |
Actually there were 15 original commandments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB1ruv1n8U
|
I love that movie!
 |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:37:45 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Very simple; we are members of a social species and as such have the "code" wired in. All social species have one, be they horses or wolves or baboons or gorillas or parrots. Religious writings have nothing to do with it beyond giving the preachers another talking point.
|
Wired in denotes someone to do the wiring.
|
Prove it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:42:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I derive my moral code from the Ten Commandments, although not as religion teaches. I look to the actual meanings of the words. |
But given that they were written in Hebrew, perhaps as many as 3000 years ago, and based on even earlier legal systems, how can you possibly really know "the actual meanings of the words"?
|
Definitions of words and context of words denote meaning. |
Brilliant. So tell me how you follow this commandment:
"Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you." |
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:53:43 [Permalink]
|
Cune, honor means: a showing of usually merited respect (Websters).
So, one would show respect and act on that respect in relation to ones parents.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 05:54:28 [Permalink]
|
Jerome wrote:
Why did many isolated cultures develop similar standards?
|
The same reason why cravings for sweet-tasting foods is universal.
I don't think you understood my post which this question is a response to, because I already answered this question in that post. I wrote: | Cultural standards for morality as well as individual tendencies and preferences fall within a scope of norms that are part of human nature. |
Just as there are both biological and environmental reasons why humans would crave sweets, there are biological and environmental reasons why we would have a natural sense for both empathy and selfishness, sharing and hoarding, kindness and cruelty, depending on various sets of circumstances. This seems rather obvious to me.
Jerome, this is a fairly extensive topic that much research and thought has gone into, especially recently within the field of sociobiology and evolutionary psychology. If you are actually interested in the topic, I strongly suggested reading up on the research and ideas. I already mentioned the book by Hauser. That is the best one that is recent. A little less recent and so a little more outdated but still rather good for getting the general concepts are E.O.Wilson's On Human Nature and Robert Wright's The Moral Animal.
To be frank, I really don't feel like going any further into the subject with you if you can't even comprehend what I've posted so far, especially given passed experiences with your debating style and your poor understanding of how scientific research is conducted. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Atheism and Morals
