|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:08:33 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
Jerome, apparently you are unaware of the fact that most basic research gets its funding from the fed. When one person imposes a minority view on the majority, it is also called tyranny.
I agree with you that one of the reasons for the veto on these bills is to perpetuate a wedge issue, to distract the electorate from the real issues of the day...
But the implications and ramifications of this make it more than just a wedge issue. Most basic research in this country is federally funded, only after proof of principle is established do private companies tend to get involved.
Also, California hasn't yet spent a single dime on HESC research. They have been tied up in legal challenges by the theocrats for years. Just last month the legislation cleared the CA supreme court, opening the way for grants to be issued.
Other states are years behind CA.
Bush has strangled HESC research in its infancy, and we are unlikely to see good progress made in this field for atleast another decade now.
And let me get this in preemptively to anyone who thinks a blastocysy is a human life... PUT DOWN THE CRACKPIPE!
|
Wrong again. http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003794.html
"In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry."
57% is from private industry, that leaves 43% between state and federal.
Please back up your statements with evidence.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
 |
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:57:16 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Starman
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The point is moot, lots of money is currently being spent privately and at the state level on this exact research. |
If that is the case, cool, but unless you can provide any refrences for this claim I'll doubt it.
|
Even so Star, private funding of this type of research limits the availability of findings to others doing research. It's causing research in a bubble. Federally funded research requires that the research is available to all. Public dollars, public domain. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
|
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 20:16:52 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Trish
Originally posted by Starman
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The point is moot, lots of money is currently being spent privately and at the state level on this exact research. |
If that is the case, cool, but unless you can provide any refrences for this claim I'll doubt it.
|
Even so Star, private funding of this type of research limits the availability of findings to others doing research. It's causing research in a bubble. Federally funded research requires that the research is available to all. Public dollars, public domain.
|
Trish, I respectfully state that federal funds and profit from the production of those funds goes to the favored based on those that currently hold power. There is no special exemption in science from this political fact.
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 22:09:12 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dude
Jerome, apparently you are unaware of the fact that most basic research gets its funding from the fed. When one person imposes a minority view on the majority, it is also called tyranny.
I agree with you that one of the reasons for the veto on these bills is to perpetuate a wedge issue, to distract the electorate from the real issues of the day...
But the implications and ramifications of this make it more than just a wedge issue. Most basic research in this country is federally funded, only after proof of principle is established do private companies tend to get involved.
Also, California hasn't yet spent a single dime on HESC research. They have been tied up in legal challenges by the theocrats for years. Just last month the legislation cleared the CA supreme court, opening the way for grants to be issued.
Other states are years behind CA.
Bush has strangled HESC research in its infancy, and we are unlikely to see good progress made in this field for atleast another decade now.
And let me get this in preemptively to anyone who thinks a blastocysy is a human life... PUT DOWN THE CRACKPIPE!
|
Wrong again. http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003794.html
"In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry."
57% is from private industry, that leaves 43% between state and federal.
Please back up your statements with evidence.
|
American biomedical research is not just basic research.
Most of it is drug development and clinical trials for pharmaceuticals. The 57% number is misleading in this context. The fed kicks in little to no money in drug development research.
Therefore, basic research on the operation of basic human systems and developments of new treatments (not drugs) is mostly funded by the state and federal governments. Failure to fund such research continues to hamstring it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 22:13:33 [Permalink]
|
Jerome said:
Please back up your statements with evidence.
|
Perhaps you need some basic reading lessons Jerome.
Basic research, the "what if" kind of stuff, is mostly funded by the fed.
Private industry does not dump a lot of money into research that has little or no chance of paying off.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 22:45:16 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
Jerome said:
Please back up your statements with evidence.
|
Perhaps you need some basic reading lessons Jerome.
Basic research, the "what if" kind of stuff, is mostly funded by the fed.
Private industry does not dump a lot of money into research that has little or no chance of paying off.
|
So, your initial statement had little to do with the conversation at hand?
If you changed the topic of what kind of research funding we where talking about you should have said something more specific. When you responded to my statements of plenty of state and private funding for stem cell research, I assumed you were talking about this.
Dude you directly addressed me and my assertion. Where you intentionally trying to deceive with your argument by responding with another type of funding?
|
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 23:59:21 [Permalink]
|
| Dude you directly addressed me and my assertion. Where you intentionally trying to deceive with your argument by responding with another type of funding? |
Stop being deliberately obtuse troll.
If basic research is restricted, then the expanded work on promising subjects is never available to fund, because we don't know it is there waiting to be explored.
The point you so obviously don't want to admit you were wrong about isn't difficult to grasp.
No funding of the basics cuts much of the possibility for expanded work that will actually lead to cures.
In the US the fed is responsible for most of that basic funding.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 00:03:18 [Permalink]
|
| If you changed the topic of what kind of research funding we where talking about |
Its YOU who is changing the topic, troll.
This thread is about federal funding of HESC research, and the fact that there hasn't been any, because Bush is a world class fuckwit.
If the fed doesn't fund the basics, the research dies, as a general rule.
Only because of the extrodinary potential of HESC research have some states stepped up with independent funding proposals.
so eat
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 00:58:07 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
| If you changed the topic of what kind of research funding we where talking about |
Its YOU who is changing the topic, troll.
This thread is about federal funding of HESC research, and the fact that there hasn't been any, because Bush is a world class fuckwit.
If the fed doesn't fund the basics, the research dies, as a general rule.
Only because of the extrodinary potential of HESC research have some states stepped up with independent funding proposals.
so eat
|
But otherwise, you like the guy.
Dude and Jerome,
Sittin' in a tree,
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 06:45:42 [Permalink]
|
Mabuse?!?!?!?!?
Maybe I wasn't clear. I am anti death penalty.
For the President to say it is unethical to kill an embryo to save a human life yet believe Executing people on the premise to prevent violent crime is oxymoronic, contradictory and any other adjective you can think of.
BTW, I do think fertilization clinics should be shut down and those that are infertile or have issues with child bearing should consider adoption, but that is my view and opinion.
Also, in conversations with people on the other side, I do agree with using existing stem cell lines for research but I'm not going to hype it as the be all and end all of all ailments, spinal cord injuries, alzheimer's. There's a potential but nothing's been proven yet.
Mabuse said-
"The embryos that are being used for stem-cell research whould have been destroyed anyhow, so ethically, it's better to use them in the hopes of saving human life, than not using them at all."
hm... would it be ethical to remove organs from death row inmates to save person's life?
By your arguement, the answer is yes. Unless you don't view embryos as humans then the question should be when is someone considered a human. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 08:56:20 [Permalink]
|
Rubicon said:
| Unless you don't view embryos as humans then the question should be when is someone considered a human. |
An embryo (or more properly, a blastocyst) is nothing more than a group of aprox 100 small cells. To say this thing equals a human life is an absurdity.
If you do think a blastocyst is a human life, and you believe some diety created humans, then you have to admit that creator is a genocidal psychopath. Because about 40% of blastocysts fail to implant in the euterine wall or miscarry after implantation, naturally. So 40% of the human race has been killed by god before being allowed to escape the womb....
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 10:19:23 [Permalink]
|
Dude,
I'm not bringing in God on the equation. I know enough that when one invokes the or a Deity on a post on these forums, the argument is over and ridicule begins. So I chose to keep him out.
I do think that the embryo is human, because genetically it is.
The fact that not all pregnancies take place, and embryo's die tells me life is rare and fragile and should never be taken cavalierishly.
Just call me a savage in your brave new world.
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:13:58 [Permalink]
|
I think Rubicon has a totally reasonable position. Dude, to dismiss the will-be human embryo as "a blob of cells" is just as short-sighted as you claim about Rubicons position.
Edited to add, I hold both positions, I feel it is a human and just a bunch of cells which may be discarded. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/22/2007 11:15:14 |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:23:12 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Rubicon95
I do think that the embryo is human, because genetically it is.
|
But then, so is your hair, your nails, the skin you shed daily, a tumor, a cancer, your amigdalas... why would a blastocyst be treated any different? Simply because it's made of an egg and sperm? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 11:37:52 [Permalink]
|
You know damn well why. The question is insulting.
Edit: If your going to argue based on minor sematic errors, then dont bother. We certainly wouldnt let a woo-woo artist get away with something like that. (comparing an embryo to a hair) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/22/2007 11:54:10 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Stem Cell Veto
