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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2007 : 05:32:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
You make absolutely no distinction between a human life and, say, sea monkeys?
HH you're being ridiculous.
Sea Monkeys are more intelligent than most humans
Present company excluded...
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Too true, too true. Was there ever a species in the entire universe so dedicated to it's own confusion and ultimate destruction?
My own view of this is a bit more primitive. I hold that until the child can survive outside of the womb, albeit with life support, it is not yet human.
Heading for the bomb shelter, now. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2007 : 07:28:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
Yep that's it. I mean if I could say a Zygote is a non-human what is to prevent me from saying a Down Syndrome kid is not human? |
I wouldn't go so far as to say that a zygote is non-human, but rather, semi-human. This implies that I consider the existence of a grey area where humanity is hard to define. It also means that I think there are (and should be) a varying degree of "rights" assigned to it.
The Human Rights of a zygote or an embryo cannot be absolute. That would result in some pretty ridiculous situations.
Consider a woman who gets a miscarriage because she decided to go on a ride at Disney Land. If the Rights of the embryo/foetus is absolute, then we would have to prosecute the woman at least for negligent homicide. If she was informed by signs on the ride that pregnant pregnant women shouldn't ride, then we have a case for 1st degree murder.
Is that reasonable?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 07:29:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
HH you're being ridiculous.
Sea Monkeys are more intelligent than most humans
Present company excluded... |
Right. Intelligence would be one criterion by which we could separate humans and sea monkeys. It was you that said no one has a right to make such distinctions ("no one has the right to determine what is not human.")
My point is that's obviously wrong, since we determine what is and is not human all the time. You did it when you decided a zygote is a human, and so your statement was rather hypocritical. What you were really saying is "no one has the right to determine what is not human except Rubicon95."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 08:56:16 [Permalink]
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"I wouldn't go so far as to say that a zygote is non-human, but rather, semi-human. This implies that I consider the existence of a grey area where humanity is hard to define. It also means that I think there are (and should be) a varying degree of "rights" assigned to it"
Mabuse, I really like they way you think and propose counter arguements. Yes that situation would be reasonable provided the state gave the embryo legal rights. That's whole other ball of wax. That I'm not going into.
It's a massively grey area when you define humanity. I don't know if there is some Gom Jabbar out there to help determine it.
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| Edited by - Rubicon95 on 06/28/2007 08:58:31 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 09:49:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
It's a massively grey area when you define humanity. I don't know if there is some Gom Jabbar out there to help determine it.
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I appreciate your nod to "Dune"...
Both I and Filthy have been quite explicit about our definition, which is quite clearly defined. When a baby is biologically separable from it's host without threat to it's life, and life sustainable by artificial means.
Until that point it is intimately depended upon it's host. That's when its mother should have all saying.
While our definition is not as clear-cut as the moment of conception, or implantation into the womb, or any arbitrary number of cells in the blastocyte/embryo, it provides a boundary that is easy to recognise even by laymen, and it also places the boundary where it is easy to logically assign or re-assign responsibility for the growing baby.
At that point, the society and/or the government can decide the fate of the baby without interfering with the life of its mother, or forcing its will upon her. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/28/2007 09:50:43 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 10:38:41 [Permalink]
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I really like "Dune"
I thought those were your positions on life not humanity. Anyway, thanks I really appreciate your input, views, and arguements. It's good to see the other side of the arguement.
Have a great holiday.. skol |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 12:13:44 [Permalink]
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| I also enjoy these discussions. It forces me to think more about my position, and helps formulate my ideas into usable arguments. It also gives me the opportunity to re-evaluate my thoughts, and take impressions of other peoples arguments. If they have good points, that are logical, I see no reason why I couldn't or shouldn't find a way to incorporate them into my own philosophy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 13:40:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
While our definition is not as clear-cut as the moment of conception, or implantation into the womb, or any arbitrary number of cells in the blastocyte/embryo, it provides a boundary that is easy to recognise even by laymen, and it also places the boundary where it is easy to logically assign or re-assign responsibility for the growing baby. |
Carl Sagan, in The Dragons of Eden, argued for restricting abortions once the foetus demonstrates brain wave activity, but he put that event at about twelve weeks, which is incorrect. Some have argued for using the heartbeat as the cut-off, which begins around 18 days in.
The staunchest pro-lifers want the line to be drawn at conception, but the "potential person" argument leads one to wonder why male masturbation wouldn't count as mass murder. The staunchest pro-choicers want the line to be drawn at birth, either for political (slippery slope) reasons, or ignoring the fact that a day earlier, the foetus isn't substantially different.
For legal, practical and ethical considerations, a line needs to be drawn somewhere in between. It needs to be unambiguous and medically precise. And we should be able to, through appropriate legislation, change where the line is due to changing cultural values and/or new scientific insights. But we can't even get that far due to the largely all-or-nothing attitude expressed by both sides. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Stem Cell Veto
