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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2007 : 02:59:04
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This morning, I came across this: Rise of man theory ‘out by 400,000 years'
Dalya Alberge, Arts Correspondent
Our earliest ancestors gave up hunter-gathering and took to a settled life up to 400,000 years earlier than previously thought, according to controversial research.
The accepted timescale of Man's evolution is being challenged by a German archaeologist who claims to have found evidence that Homo erectus — mankind's early ancestor, who migrated from Africa to Asia and Europe — began living in settled communities long before the accepted time of 10,000 years ago.
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And:
Professor Ziegert used potassium argon isotopic dating, stratigraphy and tool typology to compile his evidence. He will publish his findings this month in Minerva, the archaeology journal.
The news divided scholarly opinion yesterday.
Sean Kingsley, an archaeologist and the managing editor of Minerva, said: “This research is nothing less than a quantum leap in our understanding of Man's intellectual and social history. For archaeology it's as radical as finding life on Mars.
“As a veteran of over 81 archaeological surveys and excavations . . . Ziegert is nothing if not scientifically cautious, which makes the current revelation all the more exciting.”
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I'm taking this one with a large grain of salt, at least until peer review is complete. I do not trust "break-throughs." They have a nasty habit of becoming "fall-throughs," especally when appearing in the popular press before being published in the scientific literature.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 03:23:00 [Permalink]
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I'll await further analysis, along with Fil, before becoming even a little excited about this. These may just have been prime fishin' holes where hunter-gatherers camped and built shelters again and again. The idea that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle was abandoned in Homo erectus times seems pretty unlikely, since it's still being practiced by some Homo saps in the 21st Century.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/26/2007 03:24:29 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2007 : 04:22:43 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical. There's a rather large gap between 10,000 and 400,000 years. If the 400,000 number is right, I think we'd have to say that it was a one-shot experiment that failed. Else you're stuck trying to explain where all the evidence is for settlements in between these two dates. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 05:54:50 [Permalink]
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Is anyone familiar with Minerva? I'd never heard of it so I googled and the best I got was this: Welcome to Minerva Magazine OnlineMinerva Website Enhancements
We hope you enjoy your visit to the latest edition of Minerva Magazine Online, please browse the current edition as well as previous editions now available in our "Online Archive" accessed by clicking on the "Archive" link above.
Also our online index of back issues is now greatly expanded and available on this site.
For Print Edition Subscriptions and Back Issues please go to the "Subscribe" page on this website.
Jerome M. Eisenberg, PhD, Founder & Editor-in-Chief
Dr Sean Kingsley, Managing Editor
Dr Mark Merrony, Editor
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There follows a list of links to articles that I didn't browse. It seems to be a perfectly reasonable publication, but is it a scientific one? They are calling it a magazine rather than a journal, and no mention, that I saw, of any sort of qualifying review for submitted papers.
If this is no more than an ancient art publication, even an excellent one, I fear the good doctor's findings are suspect, and might soon embarrass him.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 06:20:57 [Permalink]
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A settlement does not a global civilization make, I see no reason that this one settlement should spawn an Erectus settlement craze. In 400,000 years I suspect many such short-lived settlements would appear, as stated above in key locations. Its not like there was some book telling H.E. that they must always live as nomad hunter-gatherers. They were all independent of each other and made use of whatever their stretch of land gave them. Considering how much history we lose in just a thousand years I so no reason why many many things 100K+ years-old will remain unfound/unknown by modern humans.
Translation: It would not surprise me at all if this were true. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 06:34:16 [Permalink]
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Nomadic hunter-gatherers are not nomadic for the heck of it. If such a group found an area with enough resources to sustain them year-round, it's reasonable that they'd stay and exploit it. On the other hand, I didn't read any clear evidence that they were year-round occupants. They could have been a group that migrated between wet and dry season camps for thousands of years, making them semi-nomadic. Any group that re-uses the same camp spot will usually re-use it in the same way - same hearth location, same windbreaks, same garbage dump, same knapping station - as they did last time. Spots for particular activities are often picked with a reason (put the campfire here, then we can all sit on these rocks to drink beer and roast sausages).
From 400,000 years later it's near impossible to distinguish between "settled in one place" and "wasn't forced to move much".
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- TW
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 06:38:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Translation: It would not surprise me at all if this were true. |
Right, BPS. And indeed, we can imagine that over 400,000 years there might have been more than a few such settlements. However, it seems likely that a) they were short-lived (e.g. a generation or two before illness, marauders, ecology, etc. forced them to up and more [or wiped them out!!]), and b) the concept never caught on. So even if the settlement is genuine, I still think that the statement "humans first began to establish permanent settlements 10,000 years ago" is essentially correct. Anything before that seems more like an anomaly, and not part of a general pattern. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 06:41:01 [Permalink]
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| If there was a large and frequently used game-trail near by and easy access to water, and even places for fishing and foraging, I see no reason why there couldn't be a more permanent settlement for as long as the game trail is trafficked. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 12:41:41 [Permalink]
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At risk of simply rephrasing some of the thoughtful comments already made:
A hunter-gatherer doesn't become a settled villager simply because rich local conditions are such that wandering isn't required. Not wandering doesn't make him something other than a hunter-gatherer. Staying put for many generations while growing crops, or raising domestic herds might, though. (Just as the first known Homo sap settlements of about 10,000 years ago are not considered civilizations, I don't think we're being asked to think H. erectus was civilized, either.)
I'm not sure how a permanent fishing village would count. Is that a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or not?
The key here is whether or not "settled" (if it's proved) rules out the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. I don't think so. Not doing something (wandering) doesn't vault a band of hominids into village life. But permanent settlement (not yet proven) while farming or keeping animals (no evidence shown yet) might.
And I won't believe these folks had villages until they find a fossilized mayor.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/26/2007 12:45:17 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 13:05:06 [Permalink]
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"settled" would also imply the domestication of animals for food, and some forray into agriculture.
It seems to me that (as has already been said) a frequently used camp does not imply "settlement".
I can't imagine that nomads wouldn't make repeat stops at the same camp if it was a good one.
The most interesting thing about this is what is says about the intelligence of H. erectus. They were tool users, and now (if this report is accurate) we know they had enough brainpower to recognize a good spot to camp and exploit it. Even if the settlement wasn't permanent, it says interesting things about our ancient cousins.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 15:05:56 [Permalink]
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I was thinking about the word settlement and what I would mean by it...
When the local resources are plentiful enough that hunter-gatherers do not need to move, the resulting "settlement" is really a long term camp. Long could possibly be measured in centuries or millennia if the inhabitants lived within the limits of the local resources. If anything causes a drop in resources, they move elsewhere, even if only for a season.
The long term camp may contain permanent structures, such as stone wind breaks or hearth pits, but they result from the nature of local materials. A windbreak could merely be a side effect of clearing a flat spot for tool making or sleeping.
It becomes a "permanent" settlement when the inhabitants stay on the spot despite changes in environment/resources, and they cope with change by manipulating the local environment. The build fish weirs or traps, animal pens, beginnings of agriculture, satellite hunting camps, food storage, etc.
So how can you determine whether the inhabitants "settled" because they didn't need to move, or settled because they didn't want to move?
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- TW
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 18:49:26 [Permalink]
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How would one date a stone tool?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 19:13:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
How would one date a stone tool?
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One method is Obsidian hydration dating. That works with this volcanic glass, by measuring the amount of water that has seeped into it since it was knapped. In other cases, stone tools may be dated by applying the dates given to other material found directly associated, or in the same level of strata. (Thus, a spearhead embedded in a mammoth bone can be accurately dated if the bone can be.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 19:15:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
How would one date a stone tool?
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One method is Obsidian hydration dating. That works with this volcanic glass, by measuring the amount of water that has seeped into it since it was knapped. In other cases, stone tools may be dated by applying the dates given to other material found directly associated, or in the same level of strata. (Thus, a spearhead embedded in a mammoth bone can be accurately dated if the bone can be.)
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Yep, also the charcoal from any campfires in the village, or just from knowing the age of the strata in which the material is present.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/26/2007 19:16:12 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 19:47:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
How would one date a stone tool?
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One method is Obsidian hydration dating. That works with this volcanic glass, by measuring the amount of water that has seeped into it since it was knapped. In other cases, stone tools may be dated by applying the dates given to other material found directly associated, or in the same level of strata. (Thus, a spearhead embedded in a mammoth bone can be accurately dated if the bone can be.)
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Were the stone tools found at this site made from obsidian or found within bones or found in strata?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 19:48:24 [Permalink]
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How is the dating of strata done?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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400,000 year old, H. erectus village?
