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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2007 : 16:51:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Was genetic data increased? This is the question we are currently talking about. |
Define "genetic data" in precise biological terms for us. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 17:01:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Was genetic data increased? This is the question we are currently talking about. |
Define "genetic data" in precise biological terms for us.
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DNA sequence. Has a mutation ever been shown to increase the amount of information in a DNA sequence in any creature?
I think you know the answer and the truthful answer backs yon into a corner from which you have little hope of verification of your faith.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 18:02:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
DNA sequence. Has a mutation ever been shown to increase the amount of information in a DNA sequence in any creature? |
That's not a definition of "genetic data," it's simply re-wording it in precisely the same vague way. Define "information in a DNA sequence" in a biologically precise formulation.| I think you know the answer and the truthful answer backs yon into a corner from which you have little hope of verification of your faith. |
Not at all. Your vague questions are impossible to answer, and so clarification is necessary. If you are unable to ask the questions in a precise manner, it's probably because you don't actually understand the subject matter.
We can take it slowly: what do you mean by "information" as regards DNA, and how would that information be measured in order to demonstrate an increase (or decrease, or a lack of change) in information in a DNA sequence? We can't test the hypothesis without a way to measure it, so what would you suggest?
Please note that no appeals to "common knowledge" will be possible in your answer, because this subject certainly isn't common. Information theory is pretty deep math, and bio-informatics is a relatively new field of study. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 18:27:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
DNA sequence. Has a mutation ever been shown to increase the amount of information in a DNA sequence in any creature? |
That's not a definition of "genetic data," it's simply re-wording it in precisely the same vague way. Define "information in a DNA sequence" in a biologically precise formulation.| I think you know the answer and the truthful answer backs yon into a corner from which you have little hope of verification of your faith. |
Not at all. Your vague questions are impossible to answer, and so clarification is necessary. If you are unable to ask the questions in a precise manner, it's probably because you don't actually understand the subject matter.
We can take it slowly: what do you mean by "information" as regards DNA, and how would that information be measured in order to demonstrate an increase (or decrease, or a lack of change) in information in a DNA sequence? We can't test the hypothesis without a way to measure it, so what would you suggest?
Please note that no appeals to "common knowledge" will be possible in your answer, because this subject certainly isn't common. Information theory is pretty deep math, and bio-informatics is a relatively new field of study.
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Are you now arguing that the question is too complex to answer?
DNA is made from a combination of amino acids. Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand?
Similarly, has a mutation caused an increase in the number of chromosomes in a particular species?
If so please reveal this data.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 18:50:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Are you now arguing that the question is too complex to answer? |
You're going to have a hard time demonstrating that when I say "vague," I really mean "complex."| DNA is made from a combination of amino acids. |
No, broadly, it's made of nucleic acids. Amino acids are what get put together in proteins.| Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand? |
That's not a question about the information in a DNA sequence, unless you naively think that more nucleic acids equals more information. However, a sequence of nothing but Adenine bases would carry no genetic information whatsoever, no matter how long it is. But, the Nylon Bug is one of several known answers to your question.| Similarly, has a mutation caused an increase in the number of chromosomes in a particular species? |
Polyploidy happens quite frequently.| If so please reveal this data. |
You dismissed it out-of-hand previously. Why would you accept it now? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 19:38:44 [Permalink]
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Dave you did not like the question, asked me to rephrase and still contend that the question is incorrect.
Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand?
The nylon bug has been a common answer without explanation. Does the nylon bug have more information in its DNA that the previous species?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 19:52:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave you did not like the question, asked me to rephrase and still contend that the question is incorrect. |
No, I said your question was vague, I asked for a precise alternative, and you gave me the same vague question in different terms. Your third attempt got less vague, enough so that an answer was possible.Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand?
The nylon bug has been a common answer without explanation. Does the nylon bug have more information in its DNA that the previous species? |
Apparently, you're not reading the links, which show that the Nylon Bug's ability is due to the addition of a single nucleotide within a particular gene. It is, undoubtedly, an increase in the number of nucleotides compared to its ancestor species, even without counting the gene duplication that likely occured. If that's how you want to define "an increase in information in a DNA sequence" - as a naive increase in the count of nucleotides - then the Nylon Bug is assuredly an example of that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 19:53:49 [Permalink]
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| Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand? |
No. That would, for reasons that Dave W. already mentioned, be extremely unlikely.
Jerome, has it ever been shown that you can produce any information what-so-ever? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:08:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
| Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand? |
No. That would, for reasons that Dave W. already mentioned, be extremely unlikely. |
Oh, well, I missed that he repeated his mistake after careful correction.
Hey, Jerome: how many of each animal did Moses take on the Ark? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:09:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
| Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand? |
No. That would, for reasons that Dave W. already mentioned, be extremely unlikely.
Jerome, has it ever been shown that you can produce any information what-so-ever?
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When I present information it is commonly discounted because the presenter is not acceptable.(not that the data is invaild)
If an increase of data in DNA has never been shown to occur through mutation than the first "life" must have had the most complex DNA strand.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:12:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Hawks
| Has a genetic mutation ever caused an increase in the number of amino acids in a particular DNA strand? |
No. That would, for reasons that Dave W. already mentioned, be extremely unlikely. |
Oh, well, I missed that he repeated his mistake after careful correction.
Hey, Jerome: how many of each animal did Moses take on the Ark?
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Hey, Dave how many mutations does it take to increase data in DNA?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:13:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
When I present information it is commonly discounted because the presenter is not acceptable.(not that the data is invaild) |
In this case, the question is invalid because DNA strands do not contain amino acids. And don't forget, you're asking a question, not presenting data. Your failure to present data has already been remarked upon in this thread.| If an increase of data in DNA has never been shown to occur through mutation than the first "life" must have had the most complex DNA strand. |
You've been given the answer mutliple times in at least two threads. Why do you reject it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:14:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, Jerome: how many of each animal did Moses take on the Ark? |
Hey, Dave how many mutations does it take to increase data in DNA? |
Why won't you answer my question? I've already answered yours. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:24:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Hey, Jerome: how many of each animal did Moses take on the Ark? |
Hey, Dave how many mutations does it take to increase data in DNA? |
Why won't you answer my question? I've already answered yours.
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You have not answered, but I will. According to the bible different amount of different types (as I was not there I do not know, it also could be a retelling of a story in contemporary context).
Dave, how many mutations does it take to increase data in DNA?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:31:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
You have not answered, but I will. According to the bible different amount of different types (as I was not there I do not know, it also could be a retelling of a story in contemporary context). |
According to the Bible, Moses wasn't even born when Noah took animals on the Ark during a Flood. Your failure to see the mistaken premise within the question is a symptom of the overall problem you're having here in these forums, Jerome.| Dave, how many mutations does it take to increase data in DNA? |
Had you read the links provided to you, you would know that the answer is one. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Man Can Almost Create Life
