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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2007 : 11:51:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marty
People who ascribe to a faith, or a system of faith based beliefs tend to have more of a moral center than those who do not. It is the former, not the later, that I would want running my government. |
So all other qualifications being equal, you would vote for an avowed Satanist before you voted for an atheist?| Morality doesn't require faith, but it is more commonly found within people of faith. |
No, people loudly proclaiming their morality are more often found amongst people of faith.| Why would you put your trust in someone who has no context for the reason behind their actions? |
Well, there's the false premise right there. Of course atheists have a context for their morality. It's just not the context of divine revelation from a 2,000-year-old book. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 11:53:21 [Permalink]
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HH, here are some quotes:
"I fail to see how the top 5 can be useful for moral behavior. Especially since the existence of this God is evidenced by testimonials of faith, alone."
"Strange then, how do you stop yourself from molesting children Jerome?"
" Christians are just as likely to kill, steal and cheat on their wifes as anybody else."
"Even more so, or so I've heard"
"Ah, so then you find raping underage children morally acceptable?"
"This was either a poor excuse for a dodge or your reading comprehension is lossy. Again in what way do the first 5 commandments lead to the "conformity to ideals of right human conduct"
"convey that stunned look that goes with reading some of the logic-defying comments that are sometimes posted here. You sit there for a minute sort of stupefied and think "is this guy serious"
"a prohibition on adultery would not deter in the slightest a single male from raping a 12 year-old girl"
"If this is his original thought, then he is soaring to new lows."
"Your inability to rationally address my points is duly noted, troll."
These are from just the first four pages of a ten page thread. I think only two people answered my original question. If you believe these quotes are not attacking my stated morality as opposed to your statement of attempting to bring me to an epiphany, you are more fool than man.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2007 : 12:10:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
It is all very simple and boring, indeed, to the point of ennui. As an atheist, my moral code, if we must call it that, is pretty much the same as a theist's without all the God nonsense.
Why is that so hard to understand?
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How is that "code" determined? How are standards defined? Does every atheist have a separate individual "code"?
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It's called common decency, something too many theists know little about.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 12:19:51 [Permalink]
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Filthy:
It's called common decency, something too many theists know little about. |
Common decency in many past societies is defined in much different ways than it is perceived in our current society. Are you claiming that the current "fad" of decency is the one which should be adhered to?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 12:22:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
In this thread, one choosing their morals has been thrown around quite a bit. I think a large part of morality is not built on choice, but rather instinct (coming from genetics). I certainly hope you all don't "choose" not to kill someone.
Don't get me wrong, I think choice is indeed a part, but rather just a small part.
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If genes tell man not to kill, why does man kill much?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 12:50:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy:
It's called common decency, something too many theists know little about. |
Common decency in many past societies is defined in much different ways than it is perceived in our current society. Are you claiming that the current "fad" of decency is the one which should be adhered to?
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It is the accepted mores of the society of which I am a member, as are you.
What "fad?" No matter the society, it is never a fad but an outline, a code if you must, of the behavior one citizen should show to another.
Tell me, Jerome, do you consider Fred Phelps a decent man? How 'bout James Dobson or Ralph Reed?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:11:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
These are from just the first four pages of a ten page thread. I think only two people answered my original question. If you believe these quotes are not attacking my stated morality as opposed to your statement of attempting to bring me to an epiphany, you are more fool than man. |
Jerome, most of those statements are questioning your intelligence, not your morality. And face it, you really aren't a bright guy, which is why you are such a poor thinker in general on a wide variety of topics.
The rest of the comments are not questioning your morality, they are questioning where your morals come from. They do not, as you naively believe, come from the bible. After several pages, Jerome, you were still unable to grasp this simple, fundamental point. Your failure to commit immoral acts not expressly prohibited in the 10 commandments demonstrates that something other than the commandments are holding you back. It is this "other thing" that most of us were trying to get you to acknowledge without success, to the point where I must conclude that you are simply too stupid to understand.
It may just be that you aren't smart enough to have this conversation, Jerome.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/30/2007 15:12:42 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:26:44 [Permalink]
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Filthy asked "Tell me, Jerome, do you consider Fred Phelps a decent man? How 'bout James Dobson or Ralph Reed?"
I do not know who they are. I am not trying to make a comparison or a judgment, I am trying to learn about a group that I have had little interaction.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:34:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
These are from just the first four pages of a ten page thread. I think only two people answered my original question. If you believe these quotes are not attacking my stated morality as opposed to your statement of attempting to bring me to an epiphany, you are more fool than man. |
Jerome, most of those statements are questioning your intelligence, not your morality. And face it, you really aren't a bright guy, which is why you are such a poor thinker in general on a wide variety of topics.
The rest of the comments are not questioning your morality, they are questioning where your morals come from. They do not, as you naively believe, come from the bible. After several pages, Jerome, you were still unable to grasp this simple, fundamental point. Your failure to commit immoral acts not expressly prohibited in the 10 commandments demonstrates that something other than the commandments are holding you back. It is this "other thing" that most of us were trying to get you to acknowledge without success, to the point where I must conclude that you are simply too stupid to understand.
It may just be that you aren't smart enough to have this conversation, Jerome.
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Again, you respond with a childlike attack when you disagree with someone. The more you post the more my assertion that you are one of those losers in life that continually claim victory while blaming others for losing becomes apparent; your life is a contridiction.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:36:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy asked "Tell me, Jerome, do you consider Fred Phelps a decent man? How 'bout James Dobson or Ralph Reed?"
I do not know who they are. I am not trying to make a comparison or a judgment, I am trying to learn about a group that I have had little interaction.
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Then you are either living under a rock, too junked out, or have traumatic brain damage; whatever, you haven't been paying attention.
I suggest that you google them, these fine, upstanding, devout citizens. Oh, and Pat Robertson too, whilst you're about it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:46:46 [Permalink]
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Flithy, I see nothing wrong with the second two other than being religious(I disagree with man structured religion); the first guy is your basic loony tunes. I asked my question because I would like to know the answer without relying on popular examples for the answer. Again, I am not attempting a contrast and compare. I am asking straight from the horses mouth as it were.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:48:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
HH, here are some quotes:
"I fail to see how the top 5 can be useful for moral behavior. Especially since the existence of this God is evidenced by testimonials of faith, alone."
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If you believe these quotes are not attacking my stated morality... |
Just how do a statement regarding the first five Commandments as a basis for morals in general and a statement of the revelatory nature of God attack your stated morality, Jerome? Be specific. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 15:59:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
HH, here are some quotes:
"I fail to see how the top 5 can be useful for moral behavior. Especially since the existence of this God is evidenced by testimonials of faith, alone."
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If you believe these quotes are not attacking my stated morality... |
Just how do a statement regarding the first five Commandments as a basis for morals in general and a statement of the revelatory nature of God attack your stated morality, Jerome? Be specific.
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Context, Dave, context. Instead of hiding behind attacks of my stated morals, I think the civil thing to do would have been to answer the question truthfully. Maybe this forum has had "trolls" that have come in the past and attempted to attack atheists for there moral code and it was assumed my question was the opening for attack. I am thoroughly confused as to why the question is not answered.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 16:10:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Context, Dave, context. |
That's not specific. I'm aware of the context, and I fail to see why you took the comments personally.| Instead of hiding behind attacks of my stated morals... |
That hasn't been demonstrated.| ...I think the civil thing to do would have been to answer the question truthfully. |
Your question was answered several times.| Maybe this forum has had "trolls" that have come in the past and attempted to attack atheists for there moral code and it was assumed my question was the opening for attack. |
Couldn't be further from the truth. I'm curious, for example, as to how you've derived a moral code from the original ten commandments that includes educating your customers as a virtue. The people you have claimed "attacked" you were curious about similar things, until it became clear that you were deriving a set of morals from more than the one source you offered.I am thoroughly confused as to why the question is not answered.
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I'll take the smiley-face as your indication that you know full well that the question was answered. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Religion or Politics? Where to put it?
