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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2007 : 06:18:11 [Permalink]
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Dave said "Jesus says that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you've got to follow God's law better than any Pharisee."
Here Jesus is pointing out that the Pharisee have perverted Gods law. |
Wrong.
Jesus 'perverted' Gods law. The Pharasees (Parasi?) were fundementalist that wanted to return to a strict obsevance of gods law.
Jesus healed people on Saturday, for instance, which was a clear violation of gods law. Christians say it was ok because jesus is Gods kid and can change the law or is above it or whaterver.
The pharasee where right in saying the Jesus had violated gods law.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 07:10:28 [Permalink]
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I hate that wall arguement BS.
Everyone siezes on Jefferson's one statement, while ignoring his others and his actions.
How about:
"WE the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
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| The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights. |
| Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support. |
| The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." |
| In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies. |
Jefferson, as president, also gave land and funds to Christian missionaries to convert the heathens.
Discrimination against a religious institution is bullshit. If a religious institution wants to provide works of charity, they should be permitted to compete for the same funds as any other institution providing the same works. By accepting said money , they would also be required to follow the same rules.
Now that I have that out of my system......
Maybe I am nieve, but I don't think Bush has totally lost his marbles. If he has, then Congress should impeach him, or in other ways bring that to the fore-front, or they are as guilty as he. If this is the case, then there is nothing more important.
And finaly:
Morality has nothing really to do with religion, except for the hypocrisy of some of the practisoners. (Alcohol is evil, party at my place after church, BYOB), and that forgivness crap......
It comes from your genes, your parents, commonscence, and your atmosphere. It is open to a million difirent interpretations, with what one person holds as immoral (viewing pornography for example) another finds acceptable.
Dang... I wish I had more time....
Peace
Joe |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 07:44:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Original_Intent
I hate that wall arguement BS.
Everyone siezes on Jefferson's one statement, while ignoring his others and his actions.
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Joe, this is a subject deserving it's own thread, and trust me: There will be many opinions that are contrary to your's, and I promise you, people are aching to tell you why they think you are wrong in many of these quotes.
Please, repost this in the politics- or religions folder, and see what happens.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 08:00:49 [Permalink]
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| Jefferson, as president, also gave land and funds to Christian missionaries to convert the heathens. |
How freaking obscene. Abandon your religion and traditions you heathens. Since our technology can destroy your civilzation our mythology must be better than yours.
Even someone as brilliant as Jefferson can make bonehead errors in judgement. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 08:05:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Ugggh, I have never tried to talk about gross examples. I am talking about personal experience. Does your moral code flow with society as a whole?
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A survey of Christian morality showed that more than 50% of Christian males have been watching internet porn. They cite the availablitiy of the porn as an excuse for committing sin.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 08:17:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marty
H. Humbert: I'm just going to say this. I disagree with pretty much everything you said. If anything the relationship between better education and morality is a bell-curve. In the end, education leads to arrogance, not enlightenment. |
Education often leads people to be less religious. You see that as arrogance. I see that as enlightenment. However, the important fact is that education usually makes societies more moral, unless they fail to become less religious, as the U.S. has.
And what do you mean by a bell-curve? That there is some happy middle ground with education? Just a little is a good thing, but too much is a bad thing? Well, the idea that greater education leads to decreasing morality is not supported by the facts, so that would be wrong. Unless you consider disbelief itself to be immoral, in which case you aren't doing anything except demonstrating your biases.
| The US is not a religious democracy. |
Of course it is. It's by far the most religious Western democracy in existence.
| You can't look at religion and morality on a macro level of nations and empires, there are too many factors and not enough data throughout history. Were the Middle Ages a more moral time even though there were more wars? |
That's the wrong question. You should be asking "Why weren't the Middle Ages a more moral time considering it was one of the most religious periods in Western civilization?" If your argument is that religious faith, and specifically Christianity, leads to moral behavior, then the Middle Ages should have been the most moral period Europe had ever known. If you don't think it was, then you must reevaluate your premises.
| H. Humbert: I think is foolish and simplistic to believe that religious people only do good things out of fear of a "hell". |
I agree, which is why I find Christians who threaten me with hell to be foolish and simplistic. However, there are some Christians who firmly believe that without the threat of hell or the promise of Heaven, there is no reason to behave morally. Those are the Christians who clearly do not understand atheism.
| H. Humbert: I don't understand how you conclude that religion causes a man to place himself at the center of his world. Actually, you'll find that most religious people place God at the center and not themselves. |
Right, god first, but man second. Glorifying god is an exercise in self-glorification, because Christians worship an all-powerful being who in turn promises to devote all his attention to the needs of his "flock." Atheists understand that reality cannot be bent to their will. Christians think it can be through god. Theists may not think they are all powerful, but they believe they hold a direct line of communication to the guy who is. They believe the entire Universe was created for their benefit, and they believe that if they worship the correct god they will be rewarded with eternal life in paradise. These are all delusions of grandeur which you cannot accuse atheists of laboring under.
| As for people of religion feeling that they are superior to others, I would say that it is more of a human condition to try to make yourself feel superior to others. It is this tone, after all, that I'm getting from you because you take the stance of the enlightened atheist and see me as the supernatural chump. |
Hmm. Well, I did my best not to come across as superior, but of course I do consider you fundamentally wrong. But then again, you inevitably consider me a "materialist chump" and mistake my refusal to take preposterous propositions on faith as "arrogance," so I suppose it cuts both ways.
Your belief that faith is a good thing and a source of moral behavior has not held up to scrutiny. An honest man would seek to discover why that is, rather than hand wave away the evidence and make excuses. But I have found that religious people almost always prefer to the latter to questioning their core beliefs. I guess the idea that they may be wrong is simply too terrible a possibility for them to consider.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/02/2007 08:31:33 |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:09:09 [Permalink]
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And going back to the original issue: Bush trying to fulfill the end-of-times prophes?
That has really got me worried... |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:23:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Your belief that faith is a good thing and a source of moral behavior has not held up to scrutiny. An honest man would seek to discover why that is, rather than hand wave away the evidence and make excuses. But I have found that religious people almost always prefer to the latter to questioning their core beliefs. I guess the idea that they may be wrong is simply too terrible a possibility for them to consider.
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There are religious people who are prepared to question their core beliefs though. I was one of them. It was a painful experience, but I am a happier and better person today for the effort.
And I'm more open-minded now, and much less arrogant now than I was when I was a member of the Pentecostal Church.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:25:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Ugggh, I have never tried to talk about gross examples. I am talking about personal experience. Does your moral code flow with society as a whole?
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A survey of Christian morality showed that more than 50% of Christian males have been watching internet porn. They cite the availablitiy of the porn as an excuse for committing sin.
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Eh, they aren't Real Christians(tm) - probably just satanists and/or evilutionists trying to muck up the numbers.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:32:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
There are religious people who are prepared to question their core beliefs though. I was one of them. It was a painful experience, but I am a happier and better person today for the effort.
And I'm more open-minded now, and much less arrogant now than I was when I was a member of the Pentecostal Church. |
Right. I probably worded that badly. What I meant was that I have found that most religious people stay religious by not adequately questioning their beliefs. Unlike, say, evolutionists (bad term, I know), who only find their convictions strengthened the more the evidence is honestly evaluated.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 13:53:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Right. I probably worded that badly. What I meant was that I have found that most religious people stay religious by not adequately questioning their beliefs. Unlike, say, evolutionists (bad term, I know), who only find their convictions strengthened the more the evidence is honestly evaluated. |
It wasn't meant as any kind of criticism toward you, but rather for the benefit of marty: reinforcing that change happens if you decide to be honest with yourself no matter what the cost.
I my case the price I paid was the pain of realising that I've wasted a lot of time and energy on a delusion that never made me much happier anyway. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 13:56:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
And going back to the original issue: Bush trying to fulfill the end-of-times prophes?
That has really got me worried...
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It has more people than you worried:
Europeans See U.S. as the [biggest] Threat to Global Stability
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 19:43:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
Dave said "Jesus says that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you've got to follow God's law better than any Pharisee."
Here Jesus is pointing out that the Pharisee have perverted Gods law. |
Wrong.
Jesus 'perverted' Gods law. The Pharasees (Parasi?) were fundementalist that wanted to return to a strict obsevance of gods law.
Jesus healed people on Saturday, for instance, which was a clear violation of gods law. Christians say it was ok because jesus is Gods kid and can change the law or is above it or whaterver.
The pharasee where right in saying the Jesus had violated gods law.
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The pharasees perverted Gods law. I like how you speak with authority from which you do not know. Do you even know what the word perverted means?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 19:47:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
And going back to the original issue: Bush trying to fulfill the end-of-times prophes?
That has really got me worried...
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I think you are correct.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Religion or Politics? Where to put it?
