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marty
BANNED
63 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2007 : 20:42:21
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I was recently watching the movie "Starship Troopers" which was based on Robert Heinlein's book of the same name. In this book it was suggested that there should be a requirement to gain citizenship, which came with the right to vote among other things.
In America we have a very large number of natural born Americans who have no idea about how the government works nor any idea of civic duty or responsibility...and yet, they get an equal vote as the rest of "us" who do. Is this fair? If so, why? If not, what type of qualifications should all people have to illustrate before they can become citizens and vote?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2007 : 21:51:11 [Permalink]
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In Starship Troopers the word "citizen" had a different context than the way we use it today. Non-citizens only lack two things that citizens have in that world. The right to vote and the right to run for political office. They get all the rest of the perks.
Personally I have no problems with requiring all US citizens to perform mandatory military (or civic) service, something along the lines of what most European countries have. The US has it for men (selective service act, i.e. the draft) but only in certain circumstances.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 00:07:39 [Permalink]
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Well, Heinlein ran the gamut of thinking from Socialism to Fascism over his lifetime, with too much other stuff thrown in to allow him to be called typical of either, or of anything in between. Starship Troopers was some of writing that approached Fascism most closely. Complex, contradictory, guy.
I also have no problem with national service. But I would have a problem with creating yet another non-citizen underclass, like illegal immigrants are already. And I don't exactly go along with Heinlein's flogging program.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 01:37:25 [Permalink]
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Half said:
And I don't exactly go along with Heinlein's flogging program.
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I'm completely in support of public asswhoopings for some crimes. Shoplifting, vandalism, that level of crime. A nice good spanking and public humiliation would, I think, deter a lot of that kind of petty bullshit.
I remember the public outcry in 1994 over this. I though, at the time, that a couple of licks with the cane was just what the little bastard needed. Haven't changed my mind.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 07:31:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Well, Heinlein ran the gamut of thinking from Socialism to Fascism over his lifetime, with too much other stuff thrown in to allow him to be called typical of either, or of anything in between. Starship Troopers was some of writing that approached Fascism most closely. Complex, contradictory, guy.
I also have no problem with national service. But I would have a problem with creating yet another non-citizen underclass, like illegal immigrants are already. And I don't exactly go along with Heinlein's flogging program.
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Oddly enough, I was advocating the return of public pillories and flogging for software vendors who misrepresent their product. 
I'm not sure public flogging isn't a bad idea. Seems appropriate for several non-violent offenses such as petty theft, standard DUI (not DUI with bodily injury), street racing, vandalism, solitiation for prostitution (where illegal), drug possession, etc. And it HAS to be public. Just like executions should be. Without it being public, it looses all effect as deterrent. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 11:25:05 [Permalink]
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I think that only property owners should have the vote. This worked well for Roman Republic until they expanded the vote.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2007 : 12:43:20 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
I think that only property owners should have the vote. |
If you mean what I think you mean, and not just owning a toothbrush as property, your suggestion would ensure a revolution.
People too poor to own property should not be able to vote eh? Now there is government of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite. Perfect solution.
As it happens, right now (though about to change) I own no real estate. First person I'd be gunning for is you Jerome, if that were the law.
I'm sure you were kidding though…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 13:28:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Jerome:
I think that only property owners should have the vote. |
If you mean what I think you mean, and not just owning a toothbrush as property, your suggestion would ensure a revolution.
People too poor to own property should not be able to vote eh? Now there is government of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite. Perfect solution.
As it happens, right now (though about to change) I own no real estate. First person I'd be gunning for is you Jerome, if that were the law.
I'm sure you were kidding though…
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Although my name is on the title, I can only refer to myself as minority shareholder in the property I reside in.
It's fair market value is $300,000. I owe $237,000 to a lien holder who can call the note at any time and evict me. I suppose that would mean lien holders could vote by proxy since they have claim to the most land. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 14:01:50 [Permalink]
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Holy mother of God! Floggings, pillories, votes by landowners only? And these ideas are coming from people who consider themselves skeptics? Few of the fundy theonazis even openly talk like this, aside from the mention of a judicial stoning now and again. Key Reist.
Let's put this rock back on the ground quickly, lest some of the bugs that were under it run up our legs.
Oh! You guys had me going there. You were all kidding, right?
Right?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/01/2007 14:03:34 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 14:41:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Holy mother of God! Floggings, pillories, votes by landowners only? And these ideas are coming from people who consider themselves skeptics? Few of the fundy theonazis even openly talk like this, aside from the mention of a judicial stoning now and again. Key Reist.
Let's put this rock back on the ground quickly, lest some of the bugs that were under it run up our legs.
Oh! You guys had me going there. You were all kidding, right?
Right?
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What are you trying to say?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 14:45:04 [Permalink]
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Valiant Dancer said:
| It's fair market value is $300,000. I owe $237,000 to a lien holder who can call the note at any time and evict me. I suppose that would mean lien holders could vote by proxy since they have claim to the most land |
The only reason the value is so high is the ability to borrow over 30 years. The only reason you have incurred this 30 year debt is the ability to borrow over 30 years.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 14:51:33 [Permalink]
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Not kidding.
Public flogging, in controlled conditions, monitored by medical professionals, is (IMO) a fantastic idea for adult criminals who commit serious but non-violent crimes.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 15:18:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Not kidding.
Public flogging, in controlled conditions, monitored by medical professionals, is (IMO) a fantastic idea for adult criminals who commit serious but non-violent crimes.
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Yikes.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 15:19:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Not kidding.
Public flogging, in controlled conditions, monitored by medical professionals, is (IMO) a fantastic idea for adult criminals who commit serious but non-violent crimes.
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Sure, but the definition of a crime is the question.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 16:10:20 [Permalink]
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Starship Trooper is one of my top 10 favourite movies of all categories.
I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read the book yet. But I hereby solemnly swear I shall, before the end of this year. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Requirement for Citizenship?
