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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 07:49:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, are you ready to admit the article does not represent "evolution caught in the act"?
Lets talk about the topic.
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No. What happened to the butterflies seems indeed to be evidence of swift natural selection in action. You've presented no evidence to the contrary.
Your trolling is what brought this thread so far from the original topic, as is so often the case.
I find it interesting that only now, when you've been cornered, do you piously assert that you want to go back to the OP. Now that you've again slipped up and exposed yourself by using the "kind" word, are you ready to admit you are a fundy Creationist troll?
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Do you even understand evolution.
Natural selection does not produce a genetic mutation.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 07:51:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
Can they breed and produce offspring?
No?
Different "kinds"!
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So, dogs and wolves are different "kinds" then? Because wolves won't breed with dogs in the wild.
And the London Subway mosquito, as already mentioned, won't interbreed with the surface species.
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Can not and will not are very different things.
Simple ideas for simple people.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 07:57:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, are you ready to admit the article does not represent "evolution caught in the act"?
Lets talk about the topic.
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"Evolution caught in the act" is mere hyperboyle and as such is meaningless. Were I to write a screed about armadillos, I might call it: 'Possum, on the Half Shell, and so what?
Evolution gets caught in the act, as it were, every day & all the time. The study of any species with a high population turnover, such as fruit flies, will see a great deal of it. Indeed, biology students are assigned these projects as a part of their training. They use wingless fruit flies and breed them for different eyes, legs, and so forth. And evidence for evolution can be seen by comparing extant species to their ancestors.
If you study the topic, you will see that this butterfly is not so out of the ordinary. It is, after all, a species with high, annual turnover, and one female carrying the right genes can lay a lot of eggs.
It would be at least as remarkable if the parasite killed off the species -- if it could. There is always parthenogenesis to consider.
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I have done the fruit fly breeding projects. Not once in all the literature or in our breeding did a positive mutation occur.
The sentence I highlighted could also be written in this manner:
Examples of creation are apparent every day & all the time.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:21:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
This is great! My logic and presentation of information has debunked the "fast track" evolution. |
Really? Where did you present anything that positively shows that no change in allele frequency occured?| All are only left with an argument over the definition and usage of a single word! |
No, you're just refusing to address the other arguments.| I guess all now admit the article is a misrepresented, faith based, propaganda piece. |
What about the original article?
To Half you wrote:| Natural selection does not produce a genetic mutation. |
Of course not, natural selection acts on mutations. Half didn't suggest otherwise.
To filthy you wrote:| I have done the fruit fly breeding projects. Not once in all the literature or in our breeding did a positive mutation occur. |
How did you manage to test every fruit fly in your experiments for "positive" mutations, and how did you determine what a "positive" mutation was?
More importantly, how did you determine that normal mutations in fruit flies, like orange or white eyes, or an all-black or all-tan body, were not "positive?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:15:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
This is great! My logic and presentation of information has debunked the "fast track" evolution. |
It demonstrates natural selection in action. As such it is an example of how evolution works. Given enough time, isolation and other incremental changes and speciation may occur. Any part of the process of natural selection can be legitimately called “evolution in action” because it is that which drives evolution.
Jerome:
All are only left with an argument over the definition and usage of a single word! |
That is as much nonsense as your denial that natural selection is an example of evolution in progress. Your use of the word “kind” really is unfortunate. It's a purposely nebulous term that allows for goal post moving because it lacks a specific scientific meaning. It also calls your honesty into question since it is a favored term by YEC's. There are just too many coincidences here for a guy who says he doesn't look at creationist sites.
Jerome:
I guess all now admit the article is a misrepresented, faith based, propaganda piece.
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Not at all. Examples of natural selection are also examples of “evolution in action.” One incremental change is as significant as 100 or 1000 incremental changes in understanding the concept because it's those changes that may lead to speciation and often do.
Jerome:
Natural selection does not produce a genetic mutation. |
But genetic mutation often makes natural selection possible. The nylon bug is a good example of that. When a few survive and prosper because some random mutation made that organism better suited for a changing environment, including being better suited to fend off illness for one reason or another, what you have is an example of evolution in action.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:32:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
But genetic mutation often makes natural selection possible. |
Actually, genetic mutation is the only thing that makes natural selection possible. If all individuals in a population are precise clones, then there's nothing to select. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:43:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
But genetic mutation often makes natural selection possible. |
Actually, genetic mutation is the only thing that makes natural selection possible. If all individuals in a population are precise clones, then there's nothing to select.
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What I was thinking about were traits that are recessive or dominant. For example, even though the white peppertree moths survived the ash changing the color of the tree in England because some of the moths were born white due to a lucky combination of genes passed on by the parents, it didn't necessarily involve a mutation but is still an example of natural selection.
I should have been clearer on that…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:18:36 [Permalink]
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| I see what you mean, but the genetic differences between parents that give sexual recombination utility all have arisen through mutation, also. At one point in time, there were no redheads. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:31:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I see what you mean, but the genetic differences between parents that give sexual recombination utility all have arisen through mutation, also. At one point in time, there were no redheads.
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Where is the evidence!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:38:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Where is the evidence! |
At one point in time, there was no hair, and thus no redheads. At one point in time, there was no life on Earth, and thus no redheads. Even you agree with that, yes? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:54:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Where is the evidence! |
At one point in time, there was no hair, and thus no redheads. At one point in time, there was no life on Earth, and thus no redheads. Even you agree with that, yes?
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You amazingly take your own words out of context!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:59:38 [Permalink]
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Kil, ultimately the theory of evolution relies on faith that the natural occurrences observed are its processes. This is as unfalsifiable as "goddidit", and thus as scientific.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 11:04:38 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
You amazingly take your own words out of context! |
Once again you missed the point and punctuate it with a laughing icon. How can any one person be so full of himself?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 11:20:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, are you ready to admit the article does not represent "evolution caught in the act"?
Lets talk about the topic.
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"Evolution caught in the act" is mere hyperboyle and as such is meaningless. Were I to write a screed about armadillos, I might call it: 'Possum, on the Half Shell, and so what?
Evolution gets caught in the act, as it were, every day & all the time. The study of any species with a high population turnover, such as fruit flies, will see a great deal of it. Indeed, biology students are assigned these projects as a part of their training. They use wingless fruit flies and breed them for different eyes, legs, and so forth. And evidence for evolution can be seen by comparing extant species to their ancestors.
If you study the topic, you will see that this butterfly is not so out of the ordinary. It is, after all, a species with high, annual turnover, and one female carrying the right genes can lay a lot of eggs.
It would be at least as remarkable if the parasite killed off the species -- if it could. There is always parthenogenesis to consider.
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I have done the fruit fly breeding projects. Not once in all the literature or in our breeding did a positive mutation occur.
The sentence I highlighted could also be written in this manner:
Examples of creation are apparent every day & all the time.
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Ah, at long last, the creationist flys his true colors.
Ok, fine. Now, produce an example of direct, special creation, identify it's creator with empirical evidence as to it's existence, and demonstrate that it was the direct cause of said creation.
I do not believe that you have done the fruit fly experiment. If you had, you'd know perfectly well that it is not intended to produce favorable mutations; merely to demonstrate genetic change within a species. Or maybe you have and gave it your own, unique interpretation. Whatever..... it's pretty much the same thing.
Jerome, you are as full of shit as a Chris'mas turkey!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 11:20:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Jerome:
You amazingly take your own words out of context! |
Once again you missed the point and punctuate it with a laughing icon. How can any one person be so full of himself?
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It is laughable to take ones own words out of context to avoid having to admit the inability to provide evidence of an assertion.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Evolution caught in the act!
