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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2007 : 22:33:49
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So tonight I opened the set of DVDs for the third season of The West Wing that I got as a birthday gift over a month ago, dropped in the first disc, and was treated to a reminder of when the show first aired. The first episode of the third season wasn't a "real" episode, but instead an aside on terrorism called "Isaac and Ishmael," which was scripted, shot and aired in the twenty days after 9/11.
In that episode, the writers include the fact that terrorism has never been successful. The goal of terrorism is to effect social and/or political change, but - the show claims - no such change has ever been enacted because of terrorist acts. An example given in the show was the IRA, who wanted the British out of Ireland, but the Brits are still there.
But is it true? Have no acts (or series of acts) of terrorism ever effected more change than to have the victims restrict their own freedoms out of fear of more terrorism?
(As an aside of my own, in that episode one of the Democrat characters claims that Islamic terrorists want to kill Americans because they hate our freedom and our pluralistic society. I bet Adam Sorkin is now regretting having aired that idea now that, almost six years later, it's become so much a Republican mantra that dissent is taken as a personal affront.)
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 00:01:56 [Permalink]
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I think it might better be said that terrorism very rarely works.
Arguably, the Mau Mau Uprising from 1952 to 1960 in Kenya might be considered an example of the successful use of terrorism. The Mau Maus were rather loosely organized, and bands often used tactics that could be reasonably considered terroristic, such as the slaughter of entire farm families with machetes. The Mau Maus were defeated militarily, but with the use of such excessive force by the white British settlers that the resulting revulsion in the UK led to the independence of Kenya.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 01:16:40 [Permalink]
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I guess we need a definition of terrorism, then, because the only use of a like word appears in the "In Popular Culture" section of the Wikipedia article:As a result of the events in Kenya, the verb "to mau mau" meaning "to menace through intimidating tactics; to intimidate, harass; to terrorize," entered English usage, especially in a political and/or racial context. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 02:30:51 [Permalink]
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If PLO hadn't been as effective as a terrorist organization as it was, had Palestinians ever gotten as close to their own state as they did?
Yassir Arafat went from terrorist leader to states man. Though not a very sucessful one his legacy and the idea of a true functioning Palestinian country were sabotaged by the greed of money and power hungry religious leaders both in the Fatah and Hamas.
I'd say PLO and Palestine is an example of successful terrorism, though they tripped just before the finish line. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 06:02:19 [Permalink]
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Well, part of the problem is that it seems like a lot of the current terrorist activity appears to be goal-less. Take these recent bombings in London. the Prime Minister was quoted as saying that Britain "will not give in to terrorist threats" but what's there to give in to?
Similarly, is there something the US could do, in theory that would remove the current terrorist threat from al-Qaida?
In both cases, I think we have to answer in the negative. And if I'm right, then perhaps we have to distinguish between what we often see now, and what we saw with, for instance, the IRA. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 06:51:47 [Permalink]
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Terrorism is usually defined as those terrible things that America's enemies do, and not the terrible things the U.S. and it's friends do.
Success? Depends on what you call success. Israel would not exist in its present form without terrorism.
Israel is far from a success, however. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 07:20:35 [Permalink]
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The French resistance during Vichy France in WWII!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:59:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If PLO hadn't been as effective as a terrorist organization as it was, had Palestinians ever gotten as close to their own state as they did?
Yassir Arafat went from terrorist leader to states man. Though not a very sucessful one his legacy and the idea of a true functioning Palestinian country were sabotaged by the greed of money and power hungry religious leaders both in the Fatah and Hamas.
I'd say PLO and Palestine is an example of successful terrorism, though they tripped just before the finish line.
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Ah, no. I don't agree with this one.
The PLO and Plestine is congruent to Sien Fein and the IRA. In this case the terrorism was counter-productive to their stuggle. The terrorist organization had to become a legitimate political one to survive and triumph.
And Jerome forgets the Czech resistance which did a much better job of fighting the SS by assassinating it's leader in the region. Even until capitulation, a full SS division was pinned down to keep the Czechs partisan attacks in line. Also, it NEVER MADE A SOCIAL OR POLITICAL CHANGE!!!!!!!!!
Jeez, Jerome, at least pretend you read the OP. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:50:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I guess we need a definition of terrorism, then, because the only use of a like word appears in the "In Popular Culture" section of the Wikipedia article:As a result of the events in Kenya, the verb "to mau mau" meaning "to menace through intimidating tactics; to intimidate, harass; to terrorize," entered English usage, especially in a political and/or racial context.
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Actually, I was thinking we also need to define "works."
If you define terrorism's goal as simply destabilization, then it definitely can be successful.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:28:47 [Permalink]
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| I don't think we can define success as destabilization, because destabilization isn't an end onto itself except, perhaps, for ideological anarchists. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 19:55:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Coincidentally, The Panda's Thumb recently had their own little discussion of what constitutes terrorism.
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Hmmm... Micheal Korn certainly is a madman, and is trying to scare supporters of evolution with implied threats. I'd say his intention is to terrorize, but he's somewhat cautious and indirect in this methods, so far. He certainly should be watched, and banned from the CU campus. I'd call him a fruitcake, with a potential for violence, and already sort of "low-grade" terrorist.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 00:15:27 [Permalink]
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The trouble is that most terrorist's goals are ridiculous when compared to their actual military/political power. When military power lives up to insurgent's ambitions it becomes a revolution.
Didn't the spanish pull out of Iraq after they're trains were bombed? This would seem a clear example of terrorism working. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 00:30:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Pick any Sub-Saharan African country, and there is a good chance that they are ruled by a militant leader who uses terroristic tactics to stay in power, killing to spread fear. Would this qualify?
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Actually, a very good point, and one I had not considered. Not all terrorists are out of power.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Terrorism's successes
