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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2007 : 00:25:01 [Permalink]
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trollboy said:
Wrong again. It is illegal in America for a hospital to turn away any patient regardless their ability to pay.
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Proving beyond a doubt that you don't know shit abotu US healthcare Jerome.
Any US hospital can turn you away if you can't pay. The only time they can't is if you are in immediate danger of dying. If your vitals are stable and you are not in immediate distress, they can (and do) send you on your way if you don't have insurance or cash. (some hospitals that are sponsored by the local community or state won't turn anyone away, but they will still try and collect the bill)
AND, if they treat you for some emergency, and you can't pay, they will just send a collection agency after you, take you to court, and sieze your assets if they win a judgement.
For profit healthcare is deeply wrong and immoral Jerome. It is wrong to make money from the suffering of others.
If you removed profit from the US healthcare system, we could set up a national program (normally I'd not be in favor of more government, but this is the exception) that fully covered every US citizen, paid every doctor what they earn now, AND cost less to operate than our current system does. Even if we had to increase federal tax some to do it, it'd be a good thing. Some of us, those who have health coverage now, might even end up paying less.
Let the doctors decide what is an appropriate treatment for their patients, not the insurance adjustor.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 06:00:28 [Permalink]
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State run hospitals tend to run in the red financially and in my experience, the labour is not top quality. There is a level of bureaucracy that can stifle innovation. However, those hospitals can have set mandates and provide a greater level uniformity. An example would be the implemtation of IBT128 barcoding the blood bank. It is to replace the older Codabar barcode. The US has been behind the rest of the world for the past 7 years in upgrading.
Canada adopted the MAK blood label back in 04 and set it as the standard. Whereas the US has been running into delays with ISBT.
Ideally, a for profit hospital would try to keep expenses down and have more streamlined , efficient delivery system. And look for better and more innovative ways of delivery healthcare, as evidenced by **EBM (Evidence Based Medicine)**, BMV (Bedside Medicine Verification). But that is dependent on the quality of management and quantity of funds.
To say that one system is better than the other is dis-ingenuous both systems have a lot to offer and detriments as well.
Me personally, I wouldn't want the gov't who did such a fine job with Katrina, the VA working in my hospital.
Michael Moore may be a far left loon but I am grateful that he is making us have a discussion on our healthcare.
Edit: EBM was implented in UK...my bad. |
| Edited by - Rubicon95 on 07/24/2007 06:05:57 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 09:37:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
State run hospitals tend to run in the red financially and in my experience, the labour is not top quality. |
Here in Brazil (and we are poorer than both U.S. and Canada), we find both worlds in public hospitals. We find excellent doctors in excellent hospitals and bad doctors in bad hospitals, regardless of being paid or not.
Usually in paid ones quality is associated with price; in public hospitals, the line gets blurred a little. It's well beyond my knowledge how these things work, here, but public hospitals also have a bigger quantity of patients, so it's understandable that quality suffers.
Also, public hospitals here - the big, better ones, at least - tend to be manned by medicine students and their professors. Any doctor can work both in public and private hospitals (I'm not sure if they're required to, but there are some states that do require it, methinks). |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 10:12:06 [Permalink]
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Speaking of Katrina, here's how the free market destroyed New Orleans: article
It is not government which is the problem, it is lack of government which is the problem. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/24/2007 10:12:46 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 16:20:00 [Permalink]
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These are the comments I made in response to this film after Jerome posted it in the "Sicko" thread:
| DEAD MEAT tells the truth from the mouths of Canadians. |
Just watched it. Not impressed. I find it hypocritical that you offer this video which relies entirely on personal stories, after rejecting my personal accounts which were buried within lots of other arguments. Michael Moore's film, if you bothered watching it, also has personal stories from Americans, just as horrific as these Canadian stories. Of course Moore also cites facts and other evidence that objectively compare the US healthcare system to other countries (quality per capita which is higher in almost 40 other countries, including Canada, as well as lower infant mortality rates and longer lifespans, and higher cost per capita in the States than in any other country), which this film fails to do.
More comments on this pathetic film:
-I found it interesting that the ice-skaters went to Belgium for their hip surgery. Plane tickets to Belgium are very expensive, but apparently not expensive enough to get them to get their hip surgery in the USA.
-The woman who had her brain surgery canceled twice indeed had an emotion story. The stress caused to her family was indeed terrible. However, I notice that she did eventually get it and appeared in good health. An American working class family with inadequate health insurance would have lost their house (as my husband's aunt did after health declined and she had to cover the bills) and possibly gone bankrupt. A poor person in America would have waited until they needed to go to an emergency room, and later been dropped off in skid row for not paying their bill. Hmmmmm, I wonder why Canada's health quality care per capita is better than the USA?
-A lot of film is wasted on comparing human health care to pet care and then arguing that the solution is “competition”. This would be what is called a false comparison. Humbert already mentions this, but poor people rarely get any health care for their pets. They don't bother because they can't afford it, and the animal surely isn't going to argue about it. My mom had one of our cats put down because she developed a disease that cost $70. a month to treat, and she just couldn't afford it. Obviously that shouldn't be an option when we're talking about people. Human beings who are poor can't afford healthcare regardless of how low the prices fall. And people can't control whether they are going to have a cheap or expensive ailment.
-The film mentioned that only NK and Cuba also do not allow their citizens to purchase private health care. OK, so maybe that is a problem with Canada's system. I never said Canada was perfume and roses. I never said it was perfect or even great. However, in my argument I mentioned numerous other countries. You haven't mentioned any of them. You only shove forth this film that makes the illogical argument: “Canada's system isn't great, therefore America's system is better.” Sorry, sir, but the facts say otherwise, and you have put forth nothing to argue against those facts.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:26:10 [Permalink]
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Rubicon said:
| Ideally, a for profit hospital would try to keep expenses down and have more streamlined , efficient delivery system. |
For profit has, in my experience, reduced the quality of healthcare people recieve. But your statement is, if unintentionally, flawed. There is no reason why a non-profit system wouldn't also try to maximize efficiency and minimize expense. The difference, and what makes non-profit better imo, is that the focus shifts to maintaining the best possible quality as the primary goal, instead of maximizing efficiency (which is detrimental to your patients).
Me personally, I wouldn't want the gov't who did such a fine job with Katrina, the VA working in my hospital.
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Aside from the logical fallacy..... you won't have to worry about it. No republican run government would change the laws. The republicans will also do everything they can to block democrats from changing things.
Billions of dollars of profit are at stake here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 14:18:24 [Permalink]
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Your introduction of Non-Profit is misleading. My arguement is on state run hospitals and made no mention of Non-Profits. I'll be more specific to say my arguement is on state run hospitals in the US. Not all non-profit hospitals are state sponsored or state run.
They are independent tax-exempt entities and they don't usually accept indigent patients, because they cannot collect on them. please note the attached article as an example.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45531-2005Jan28_4.html
In both, effieciency is the key to quality healthcare. What brings down the quality is the quality of management and access/quantity of funds. According the AHA, the current movement on quality care includes efficiency.
http://www.aha.org/aha/content/2004/pdf/QualityInsertJuly2004.pdf
(Forgive me Half for the long hyperlinks)
I know you are biased against Republicans. Given the current crop (or cr@p), who could fault you. but......
"The republicans will also do everything they can to block democrats from changing things." - argumentum ad odium.
Republicans were for Civil rights in the 60's - Democrats were opposed.
What you should have said is the current majority of Republicans are not conducive to change as the current majority of Democrats. That I would agree to.
What we need is a plan like what Swedish gov't did in 1932 and not have any change in political parties. They engaged in a pretty cool domestic program. - Heck lets surrender to Sweden.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 14:43:24 [Permalink]
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We should take the UK, France, and Germany and model our helathcare system after theirs. Make private for-profit health insurance illegal, and implement a national coverage plan that includes every US citizen.
Rubicon said:
I know you are biased against Republicans. Given the current crop (or cr@p), who could fault you. but......
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As far as I can tell, there is only one actual respectable rebublican left in the US, and his name is Ron Paul. Hell, if he were to get the nomination from his party (i've been tempted to switch to republican so I can vote in the primary) I would seriously consider voting for him for president. (I really don't like Hillary)
All the rest of the so-called republicans have mutated into fascist totalitarian religious psychopaths, self deluded imbeciles (guiliani), or sell out fuckwads (McCain). Its ugly.
What you should have said is the current majority of Republicans are not conducive to change as the current majority of Democrats. That I would agree to.
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The conservative movement is dead, what you see now is it's animated corpse. The right-wing nuts have manipulated the fundie religious types (like BillScott) into voting against their own interest (because fags and feminists are dangerous, ya know) and now the "conservative" politicians have become crazy religious fundamentalists.
I would be shocked if the real conservative movement ever came back.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 15:26:22 [Permalink]
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As a mattery of fact adopting Germany's model was posed on an NPR discussion. From what I recall Germany has a hybrid.
Personally, I believe that checkups, innoculations, cancer screenings and mammograms should be free. And the gov't has a moral obligation to make it accessible to all.
Yet I think national programme here may be too unwieldy and hard to administer. I would leave it to the individual states would be better. What's your opinion?
There are other issues. The may be peripheral but I believe they are relevant. One in particular is student debt for medical students. It's obscene to be that indentured and working that hard. I believe the gov't should offer grants not loans to medical students, in return for staffing and serving as general practitioners in hospitals.
"The right-wing nuts have manipulated the fundie religious types (like BillScott) into voting against their own interest" -- or the other way around as well. Phillip Yancey stated that American Christianity has been seduced by political power.
Yeah, Goldwater is turning over in his grave. In the 80's he said to Reagan (re: Conservatism) in effect his a Liberal in compared to the current (80's) conservatism.
There's not a heck of lot going for Republican candidates. If Mitt gets the nom, he'll be the Republican Dukakis.
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 20:39:04 [Permalink]
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| I'm deleting this post and starting a new thread instead so I don't derail the topic of this conversation. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/26/2007 20:39:38 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 08:18:17 [Permalink]
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Rubicon said:
| There are other issues. The may be peripheral but I believe they are relevant. One in particular is student debt for medical students. It's obscene to be that indentured and working that hard. I believe the gov't should offer grants not loans to medical students, in return for staffing and serving as general practitioners in hospitals. |
Yeah, tht would be a great idea.
One MD I know, who is from Pakistan, had to go spend three years working in a small US community as part of her visa deal.
I see no problem with having a program like that for new MDs to get a federal grant to pay down (or completely off) their student loans. The US military will pay for medical school if you agree to give them six years of your life afterwards, so why not have the same deal for civilians?
Yet I think national programme here may be too unwieldy and hard to administer. I would leave it to the individual states would be better. What's your opinion?
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I don't see how it could be any more difficult to run than what we curently have.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Truth About Canada and Health Care
