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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2007 : 06:30:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy |
| Red Herring Bill; sorry, but I ain't chasin' it! |
Oh RH my eye. I just spent the last 5-10 posts on why I believe JC to be the creator of our glorious creation and then presented a solid case for the historicity of the resurrection of JC as the capstone to his claim of divinity. Of which you address none only to say that you dismiss the divinity of JC and AtG and then you head off on some tangent about horseshoe crabs rather then address the issue of you rejecting the resurrection without even addressing the historical evidence I presented for you. Now I repeat, if you reject the historicity of the resurrection of JC then would you please explain to me on what basis you do except any claimed fact from ancient history?
| In your opinion, how many micros might it take to make a macro? |
Zero.
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And once again, my question goes unanswered. Will it ever be?
Bill, you asked for an example of 'macro' evolution and I had the courtesy to give you one -- the horseshoe crab. It was you who sent me off on that tangent, and bitching about it now is a little two-faced, don't you think?.
Your post above is yet another red herring, and a feeble one at that. I really don't give a rat's ass about Jesus' alledged divinity; for the proposes of this thread, I am mainly interested in evolution and it's process'. And that is because virtually all of the available, empirical evidence supports the ToE and says nothing about some deity or other -- heh, and that's the problem you're having with it, isn't it? No deity to praise or blame; no simplistic answer to the questions posed by the natural world. No "Goddidit" as a solution for anything. And without "Goddidit," you would actually have to do some thinking.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 06:33:31 [Permalink]
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| Now I repeat, if you reject the historicity of the resurrection of JC then would you please explain to me on what basis you do except any claimed fact from ancient history? |
How many times must it be explained to you?
If you accept the historicity of the resurrection of JC, why do you not accept the ascention of Mohammad into heaven, or do you?
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 06:47:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And then so you reject the resurrection of Jesus Christ because why?????? |
Unrealistic event without any credible evidence to support it.
Resurrection of the three day old corpse of a tortured and executed man is an extremely unlikely event. People making up stuff is common.
This make the alternate hypothesis, that the resurrection is fiction, the reasonable choice.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2007 : 06:59:55 [Permalink]
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Historicity of Jesus. There. Now let's see if we can get past that pothole.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:15:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
| Red Herring Bill; sorry, but I ain't chasin' it! |
Oh RH my eye. I just spent the last 5-10 posts on why I believe JC to be the creator of our glorious creation and then presented a solid case for the historicity of the resurrection of JC as the capstone to his claim of divinity. Of which you address none only to say that you dismiss the divinity of JC and AtG and then you head off on some tangent about horseshoe crabs rather then address the issue of you rejecting the resurrection without even addressing the historical evidence I presented for you. Now I repeat, if you reject the historicity of the resurrection of JC then would you please explain to me on what basis you do except any claimed fact from ancient history?
| In your opinion, how many micros might it take to make a macro? |
Zero.
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And once again, my question goes unanswered. Will it ever be?
Bill, you asked for an example of 'macro' evolution and I had the courtesy to give you one -- the horseshoe crab. It was you who sent me off on that tangent, and bitching about it now is a little two-faced, don't you think?.
Your post above is yet another red herring, and a feeble one at that. I really don't give a rat's ass about Jesus' alledged divinity; for the proposes of this thread, I am mainly interested in evolution and it's process'. And that is because virtually all of the available, empirical evidence supports the ToE and says nothing about some deity or other -- heh, and that's the problem you're having with it, isn't it? No deity to praise or blame; no simplistic answer to the questions posed by the natural world. No "Goddidit" as a solution for anything. And without "Goddidit," you would actually have to do some thinking.
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I don't recall asking for an example of macro? I do recall making numerious posts laced with physical evidence for the risen Christ. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:18:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And that is my problem. Somehow this imaginary separation line between cosmology/evolution has established itself in the minds of these scientists. bio evolution 101 can not be mingled with cosmology 101, these are two separate topics, they say. They create this facade so that they may protect their delicate prize while attempting to save face: |
Evolutionary biology starts with chemistry, not cosmology and yes, here we do not know exactly how things started, what is the problem with that? In what way does this affect the evolution that happened later? In what way does this affect cosmology?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:26:22 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by furshur |
| How many times must it be explained to you? |
How many times will you ignore the response?
| If you accept the historicity of the resurrection of JC, why do you not accept the ascention of Mohammad into heaven, or do you? |
I have provided numerous sources for the resurrection, I have not seen any convincing evidence for the ascension of Mohammed. Do you have some you would care to share? Why you believe that all "religious" writings can just be lumped into the same pile and do not have to stand independently is beyond me????
Using your logic I can then assume that you accept all writings that claim the label of scientific and will lump them all in one pile as well.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:30:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I don't recall asking for an example of macro? I do recall making numerious posts laced with physical evidence for the risen Christ.
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What the heck is a physical evidence for the risen Christ?
An animated corpse? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 08/01/2007 07:32:39 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:34:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
| Red Herring Bill; sorry, but I ain't chasin' it! |
Oh RH my eye. I just spent the last 5-10 posts on why I believe JC to be the creator of our glorious creation and then presented a solid case for the historicity of the resurrection of JC as the capstone to his claim of divinity. Of which you address none only to say that you dismiss the divinity of JC and AtG and then you head off on some tangent about horseshoe crabs rather then address the issue of you rejecting the resurrection without even addressing the historical evidence I presented for you. Now I repeat, if you reject the historicity of the resurrection of JC then would you please explain to me on what basis you do except any claimed fact from ancient history?
| In your opinion, how many micros might it take to make a macro? |
Zero.
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And once again, my question goes unanswered. Will it ever be?
Bill, you asked for an example of 'macro' evolution and I had the courtesy to give you one -- the horseshoe crab. It was you who sent me off on that tangent, and bitching about it now is a little two-faced, don't you think?.
Your post above is yet another red herring, and a feeble one at that. I really don't give a rat's ass about Jesus' alledged divinity; for the proposes of this thread, I am mainly interested in evolution and it's process'. And that is because virtually all of the available, empirical evidence supports the ToE and says nothing about some deity or other -- heh, and that's the problem you're having with it, isn't it? No deity to praise or blame; no simplistic answer to the questions posed by the natural world. No "Goddidit" as a solution for anything. And without "Goddidit," you would actually have to do some thinking.
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Oh, and on what basis do you accept claims of ancient history? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:44:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
| Red Herring Bill; sorry, but I ain't chasin' it! |
Oh RH my eye. I just spent the last 5-10 posts on why I believe JC to be the creator of our glorious creation and then presented a solid case for the historicity of the resurrection of JC as the capstone to his claim of divinity. Of which you address none only to say that you dismiss the divinity of JC and AtG and then you head off on some tangent about horseshoe crabs rather then address the issue of you rejecting the resurrection without even addressing the historical evidence I presented for you. Now I repeat, if you reject the historicity of the resurrection of JC then would you please explain to me on what basis you do except any claimed fact from ancient history?
| In your opinion, how many micros might it take to make a macro? |
Zero.
|
And once again, my question goes unanswered. Will it ever be?
Bill, you asked for an example of 'macro' evolution and I had the courtesy to give you one -- the horseshoe crab. It was you who sent me off on that tangent, and bitching about it now is a little two-faced, don't you think?.
Your post above is yet another red herring, and a feeble one at that. I really don't give a rat's ass about Jesus' alledged divinity; for the proposes of this thread, I am mainly interested in evolution and it's process'. And that is because virtually all of the available, empirical evidence supports the ToE and says nothing about some deity or other -- heh, and that's the problem you're having with it, isn't it? No deity to praise or blame; no simplistic answer to the questions posed by the natural world. No "Goddidit" as a solution for anything. And without "Goddidit," you would actually have to do some thinking.
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I don't recall asking for an example of macro? I do recall making numerious posts laced with physical evidence for the risen Christ.
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Just went back over the thread and found that you are correct. I was mistaken -- dunno where I got the idea you'd asked.
However, that does not in the least detract from the validity of the statement in the article.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:45:12 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Starman |
| Unrealistic event without any credible evidence to support it. |
I gave you numerous eyewitness accounts that all recorded their experiences independent of each other. I gave you Roman and Jewish historians corroborating the events as well Roman authorities. A headline splashed across a newspaper in historical context. I gave you evidence which demonstrate the reliability of the texts etc... etc.... Have you been following along here? All of which you have dismissed with nothing but a hand wave.
| Resurrection of the three day old corpse of a tortured and executed man is an extremely unlikely event. |
I would agree. History shows it only happening one time.
| People making up stuff is common. |
I would agree again. Which is why it is nice when evidence is inluded with claims rather then just more hand waving.
| This make the alternate hypothesis, that the resurrection is fiction, the reasonable choice. |
And it appears that you base this off of nothing more then your own hand waving. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 08/01/2007 07:52:20 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 07:48:44 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Starman |
| Evolutionary biology starts with chemistry |
Where did these chemicals originate from? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 08:21:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I gave you numerous eyewitness accounts that all recorded their experiences independent of each other. |
No you did not. You gave us claims of eyewitness accounts. That is definitely not the same thing.| I gave you Roman and Jewish historians corroborating the events as well Roman authorities. A headline splashed across a newspaper in historical context. |
No, there are Roman and Jewish historians reporting the presence of a christian sect around AD 100. Thats all.| I gave you evidence which demonstrate the reliability of the texts etc... etc.... Have you been following along here? All of which you have dismissed with nothing but a hand wave. |
The only thing that you have shown evidence of is your inability to understand the difference between a claim and evidence supporting a claim. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 08:33:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And it appears that you base this off of nothing more then your own hand waving. |
Actually, the hand waving being done is you dismissing opposing arguments by calling them hand waving. You've tried to make the point of the historicity of Jesus by pointing to nearly comptemorary accounts, but if we must believe such accounts then we also must believe a lot of other stuff for which we have contemporary accounts but which didn't happen (for an illustrative example only, Bush disobeying orders). You won't address these concerns, you simply hand-wave them away by calling them hand-waving. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 08:34:56 [Permalink]
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A few questions for Bill.
If it could be shown beyond any reasonable doubt to you that what you call macroevolution happens, would that somehow change the faith you have in a creator? And if so, why?
If science could somehow find acceptable verification that JC did indeed resurrect, supporting the cornerstone belief of Christianity, and it could also be shown to you beyond any reasonable doubt that evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet, would those two views really be in conflict with one another? And if so, why?
Can you dismiss out of hand, convincing evidence for natural processes if God can direct his creation any way he wants to without detection if he so chooses? Did God create antibiotic resistant strains of tuberculosis, or was that a natural process? Where does God leave off, if anywhere? And why?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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www.notjustatheory.com part 2
