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marty
BANNED
63 Posts |
 Posted - 08/10/2007 : 20:51:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Well, it's clear to me at least that Marty is a lost cause. Whatever bug has crawled up his ass isn't decamping anytime soon. His discomposure has made him incomprehensible.
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He would not tell me what question he wanted answered, so I answered then all.
Not incomprehensible at all if you read.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 21:36:28 [Permalink]
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Marty, I just looked at the Troll thread. You seem to feel that we wronged Jerome. You also think we were wrong to be critical of bngbuck's unwillingness to provide a source when he said:
| I refer only to the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory. |
Personally speaking, I decided that if he wasn't going to provide a source, I would answer as if it were a hypothetical question. But what he describes in the above quote was not presented by him as hypothetical at all. Those who sought clarification by use of a source best supplied by bngbuck because he knows of the cases he generally describes, did not deserve snotty answers by bngbuck. Would it have killed him to supply even one source for clarification? After all, it didn't seem to bother him to send us out looking for ourselves. Therefore, a source would not have tainted the question. The discussion devolved, as near as I can tell, because he took on an attitude with us. Why is it that our attitude only and not his bothers you?
But really, if you find our ways so distasteful Marty, why do you persist? There really are rules to the road here, and we didn't make them up.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marty
BANNED
63 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 22:19:05 [Permalink]
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Intentionally cursing a member as some sort of literary tool is part of the "rules of the road"?
| My reasons for insulting Jerome are actually quite complex, but I will at least say that the decision to do so was calculated and factored in a great number of things, including what I perceive to be my relationship to SFN, Jerome's role on the forum, Jerome and I's history, and my history with the moderators on SFN. |
Justifacation
This after many posts dissecting the validity of the cursing of a member.
This looks like an attempt to engender anger for an ulterior purpose. What do you think that purpose was?
This is what I was pointing out was the view from a newcomer. For this observation I was attacked. Do you think my observation was incorrect?
Then when I saw the attack on this thread, I saw it through this experience.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 23:32:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marty
He encourages others through his actions to attack and discredit most new posters that present anything deemed possibly outside of the accepted view. |
This is just completely bizarre. bngbuck certainly didn't present anything possibly outside of any accepted view.| In the troll thread; for example, I presented a view from the outside as to what others perceive as the conduct of this forum for the purpose of relying useful information to help this forum cultivate thought, and not turn off any lurkers. I was attacked and discredited immediately by Dave W.. |
Let's see. Your first post to that thread didn't relay much information at all, and my response was an open invitation to you to discuss the matter further, which you did not accept. Your second post relayed no new information at all, but was the same sort of thinly-veiled blanket condemnation from someone with an axe to grind that we see often here. I replied as appropriate, and you responded as if you were still under the impression that you were telling me something new. The rest of our interactions in that thread involve you refusing to even acknowledge my point-of-view when what you were hypocritically complaining about was your point-of-view not being heard. Finally, you insult me, and make a half-assed promise you couldn't keep.
All in all, I did not attack you and discredit you immediately, as you claim. There exist many ways to "cultivate thought," and the fact that we have members here who radically disagree with the majority but are still treated with respect (and even admiration, at times) speaks volumes against the impression you complained about.
But the really important thing is that to truly "cultivate thought," ideas must be attacked. If they don't hold up under a challenge, then they're not worth much. And, of course, it's not enough to simply deny the challenge: a worthwhile idea must be able to meet and even exceed the reasonable expectations made of it. If you demand that we offer a soapbox to anyone who might have something to say, marty, then you'll be cultivating mediocrity, not thought.| As far as I can see he is using this forum as his personal troll playground. |
I've gotta tell ya, marty, that one of your earlier posts, and now this bit on "cultivating thought," had me wondering if you were actually a true sockpuppet of Jerome's. My first look-see showed that you're now using the same IP address that Jerome had. I was encouraged that I could end this mess quickly by banning you (and Jerome) for life for such a violation of his suspension. But knowing what I know about how large Internet Service Providers function, matching IP addresses wasn't enough. So I spent a bunch of my Friday night digging into our logs, and found some evidence that generally clears both you and he from that charge.
I really, really, really wanted the proposition "Jerome and marty are the same person" to be true, but it wasn't. Such is the life of a skeptic.
In the meantime, I find you've posted a massive... thing (I lack the proper word)... in which you accuse me of trolling a zillion times, and of lying twice (despite my ealier response to you, and despite your failure to understand my example). You also called me dumb, and an ass.
Now consider that I have the power to edit any post here. I can delete any post here. I can ban people. If I'm the ogre you're convinced I am, why are you still a member, and why are the hateful things you've said still available for everyone to read? Why in the world would I let you expose the truth, if it is, indeed, truth? Why hasn't there been even a single word of moderator-red text directed your way? These are important questions, marty, and I hope you'll give them more than one-sentence responses.
(By the way, the bits where you answered questions directed to bngbuck, HalfMooner and H. Humbert: that took balls. I'll give you props on your chutzpah.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 23:57:37 [Permalink]
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Marty:
Intentionally cursing a member as some sort of literary tool is part of the "rules of the road"? |
I prefer other tactics. But hey, you're referencing a whole discussion about different peoples approach to a difficult member. And Jerome is very difficult.
As for cursing being a literary tool, yes, it sure can be. We have a bad word filter here that we have never turned on. Why? One reason is it would ruin some delightful posts by people who are great with a well-chosen word that would commonly be considered vulgar. The other reason is I don't want to start treating adults like children. Naturally, I can't help it if they choose to act like children, but that's another thing.
I do not favor, for practical reasons, venting my anger by calling people names. But I have lost my temper on these boards. It happens.
Marty:
This looks like an attempt to engender anger for an ulterior purpose. What do you think that purpose was? |
I don't know. Why don't you ask her?
Marty:
This is what I was pointing out was the view from a newcomer. For this observation I was attacked. Do you think my observation was incorrect? |
Attacked or corrected? Everyone knows that I am not happy with the level of hostility on this forum these days. That said, having looked through the Troll thread, it was you Marty in your conversation with Dave that resorted to name calling. Dave pretty much said that you don't have to agree with his correction of your view and that SFN is not for everyone, and you went off on him. Big time. Were you banned for that?
Marty:
Then when I saw the attack on this thread, I saw it through this experience. |
Well, perhaps you might try seeing as it was then…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 00:00:03 [Permalink]
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marty wrote: | Intentionally cursing a member as some sort of literary tool is part of the "rules of the road"? |
Since he's decided to drag me into this my quoting me, I feel compelled to let readers know the full context of my "justification" for insulting Jerome. Marty is trying to criticize the moderators here, especially Dave, but when I insulted Jerome, it was Dave who publicly told me to cool it.
What is the "rules of the road" is that I was not formally warned or banned for insulting Jerome because it really wasn't that big of a deal. This forum is nice because it gives us the freedom to swear and be sarcastic or snotty, so long as we don't take it too far. What I find rather tiresome as of late is all the criticism and attention being put on rudeness. Who cares if someone is being rude? If you think they are being rude intentionally to distract you from the argument, or to upset you, then don't let yourself be distracted or made upset. That's the mature response. We can argue over whether someone is really trolling or not until we're blue in the face. But the fact of the matter is that we can't know each other's intentions, nor are politeness/rudeness objective topics.
What the hell was this thread about again? Oh yeah, UFOs.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 05:57:21 [Permalink]
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| I wrote an article proposing a possible cultural explanation for some of it, you can find it on-line at http://www.skeptics.ca/newsletters/spring02.pdf Look for the title 'The Extraterrestrial Conceit' on page 5. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 07:00:53 [Permalink]
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Rat, I liked the article, especially the end about your personal experience with nature and how we are already special for being part of nature.
The whole article meshed well with the sentiment I've gathered from UFOlogists. Before I knew much abut it, I simply assumed they were mostly SF geeks who thought that aliens are cool. But after having actually met people who believe in alien abductions and who have claimed to have been abducted themselves, I was surprised by the religiosity of their beliefs. When I ask for evidence, the ones who merely believe always point at the huge number of "eye witnesses", and the eye witnesses always have pretty vague actual recollections of their experiences. What they actually describe happening to them pales in comparison to what they interpret about these experiences. A friend of mine (who doesn't believe in alien abductions herself, was was curious) went to a MeetUp of UFOlogists. She was astounded by how much detailed speculation these people got into. They were in agreement about how the aliens were more advanced than humans not only technologically, but spiritually, and that they had all these great answers that would solve so many of the world's problems with violence and cruelty.
It reminds me of people who tell ghost stories: they hear a scratching from their sister's bedroom right after she dies, therefore the sister's ghost is OBVIOUSLY there to comfort the bereaved and say goodbye! This is also how religious theology is developed: from people drawing all kinds of specific interpretations from fairly mysterious and innocuous events. An, as you say, anthropomorphism, similar to ancient animism. Think of some of the ridiculous theological debates that have caused major religious branches to split over the years. Once people start going with a line of reasoning that appeals to them, whether they have evidence for it or not often no longer matters. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 08:10:00 [Permalink]
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| Hey Rat, great article! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2007 : 08:29:21 [Permalink]
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A good signature for somebody: Emo Phillips
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 08:22:22 [Permalink]
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The Rat.....
I returned from a weekend at the high altitude of Glacier National Park, observing IFOs (the Perseids)together with many thousands of others - to read your excellent article in response to my question: What is your opinion of the UFO phenomenon? Although I have received a plethora of opinion from members of this forum in response to this question, and all of it has been useful in one way or another, your beautifully conceptualized and well written commentary on the perception of UFO phenomena was precisely spot on as to what I was originally searching for.
I would like to thank you for understanding my question and responding with eloquence. If you have further views on the subject, I would welcome them. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 12:22:45 [Permalink]
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Ohhh.... so now you're asking for opinions on the entire "UFO phenomenon"? Moving the goalposts just a bit from your OP aren't you?
| I refer only to the small but significant number of highly documented sightings of UFO aerial phenomena reported by large groups of ordinary people, groups of professional military or police, sightings verified by multiple radar trackings, groups of military pilots or astronauts; and those cases thoroughly examined by Condon et al, Project Blue Book, and other serious investigations, and NOT rejected as hoax or hallucinatory. |
If you were actually making some argument, instead of just being an argumentive dickhead, that would be a logical fallacy you know.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 12:55:52 [Permalink]
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marfknox.....
Welcome to the thread I introduced. I am very old and very old-fashioned, and I would like to welcome the first lady to this thread on this testosterone-charged forum. However, if you find this term - lady - in any way offensive, I apologize in advance and if you indicate, I will certainly desist. It is my experience that there are some delightful women that dislike the appellation, and I do completely understand their position.
I would like to address my question to you specifically, as I have already received a very substantive answer from rat. If you have not already done so, I would appreciate your reading the thread from the beginning. The question is:
What is your opinion of the UFO phenomenon?
Understand that I am not concerned, at this time, with "phenomena" that involve alleged aliens, alien abductions, alien visitations,or any speculation or "proof" dealing with the possibility of extraterrestrial life.
I am focused on the perception of unexplained aerial or near-space objects. The report filters are described in my second paragraph. I thank you in advance for any response you may care to make. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 13:35:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I would like to thank you for understanding my question and responding with eloquence. |
Well, I am obviously still not understanding, since The Rat's article was on his perception of UFOlogists, and not his perception of the UFO phenomenon. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Opinions regarding select UFO sightings
Topic Locked
