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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2007 : 05:27:22
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marf wrote:OT wrote:
Yep, be part of the problem.
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Oh please. With regards to voting or throwing any other support toward a presidential candidate, here are your options:
-vote for/support a Republican whose "good" qualities (in your own opinion) outshine the "bad" ones.
-vote for/support a Democrat whose "good" qualities (in your own opinion) outshine the "bad" ones.
-Cast a symbolic vote for a third party candidate
-Don't vote out of disgust or apathy
None of these are nice options. This is why most people pussy out of even thinking or learning about politics, and then often don't even realize how a current political policy or situation is hurting them.
I voted for Nader in 2000 largely because I was disgusted with the Clinton presidency and had the same doubts about Gore due to many things in his record. Of course I hated and feared the idea of a Bush president even more, but my state at the time (Ohio) was clearly going to Bush, so it didn't matter if I cast a third party vote. Despite my clearly calculate rational decision, my irrational Democrat family will never stop harping on me about it and deluding themselves into thinking that I helped get Bush elected. Last election I supported Carol Mosely Braun in the primary until she pulled out, and then ended up voting to Kucinich. I will likely vote for Denny again this primary, and then vote for Obama or Hilary, or whoever wins the primary when it comes down to the big election.
Anyway, my point in saying all this about my own personal decisions about voting is this: none of it really mattered in the big picture. The things I do that matter in the big picture are things that touch more people in both my local and larger community. People who only vote are about as useless as those who don't even bother to do that. Civic duty is much broader than any candidate or election, even if it is the President of the USA.
That's my verbose was of saying that filthy ain't being part of any problem.
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First, Filthy wrote
| Heh, I'm hearing from people who would vote for Hillary just to get Bill back in at least the vicinity of the White House. Me, I'd vote for Hillary for no better reason than to keep the Republican out, whoever he might be. |
(Now maybe I misinterpereted some sarcasm, and if so... I apologize....)
Which This I consider to be part of the problem. It is not this person over that person, it is this party over that party. He even says he would vote for Hillary just so there is no Rep.
Now this was not written from a good qualitry/bad quality POV. It was written from a Dem over a Rep pov. You did not list that in your options.
I, too, voted for Nader in 2000. Gore would have gotten my vote if he had distanced himself from Clinto, and at least had some kind of apology for his "no controlling legal authority" bullshit.
Part of the problems is the attitudes have to change. Your vote does matter, especially as you seem to be a leader and not a follower. You have to project that to followers..... If the leaders do not act as if there vote matters, then none of this will ever change.
We will see-saw between a scumbag Democrat and a scumbag Republican, each one learning a bit about how to manipulate the system from the one before them. This one broke that law and got away with it, so I will break this law. Now this one breaks another and throws it in your face, and this last one throws a few in your face.
Maybe I am too idealistic, and my expectations for public officials is entirely too high. I have been told both, but I refuse to cave.....
Constitution party all the way.,... Not (It really pisses me off they use that as their party name.)
Peace
Joe
edited for clarity.
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Edited by - Original_Intent on 08/15/2007 05:09:40
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 05:56:44 [Permalink]
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I wonder if it's time to stop voting. I mean as a group. Abstain until there are some changes and stop rubber stamping a corrupt system.
I don't have the answers as to what is best, but the electoral system, the Democrat/Republican lock on everything, the corporate lobbying and financing, it's all corrupt. We have no real say in what goes on, even if we were getting all the information in a reasonably unbiased manner.
Most of the U.S., most of the world, did not want to engage in Bush's escalation of an already brutal war against the people of Iraq. The only difference that made was that they didn't go in and totally enslave, torture or murder anyone they found. That's an important difference, but that's not enough.
We certainly don't want every whim of the public to rule, but I think we can do better. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 09:40:34 [Permalink]
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In my opinion: If you abstain, you cannot complain.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 14:46:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
In my opinion: If you abstain, you cannot complain.
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PREACH IT!!!! HALF
By abstaining, you are endorsing the system by allowing it to continue.
"AGITATE AGITATE AGITATE" Fredrick Douglass |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 15:15:21 [Permalink]
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The consequence of not participating in the political system is being governed by unqualified people. Please note the current administration.
Only about 50% of US citizens bother to vote. THAT is the fucking problem.
The neocons figured out how to get a bunch of idiots (billscotts of the world) to the polls to vote for them (social wedge issues). So all those who don't vote are responsible for the fucking disaster that our government has become.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 15:28:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
The consequence of not participating in the political system is being governed by unqualified people. Please note the current administration.
Only about 50% of US citizens bother to vote. THAT is the fucking problem.
The neocons figured out how to get a bunch of idiots (billscotts of the world) to the polls to vote for them (social wedge issues). So all those who don't vote are responsible for the fucking disaster that our government has become.
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Amen, Brother Dude! Testify!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 18:53:16 [Permalink]
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OT wrote: | Constitution party all the way.,... Not (It really pisses me off they use that as their party name.) |
LOL!
I get what yer saying about leaders needing to push voting. That's definitely what I mean by civic duty being much more than just voting. Actually, I had a weekly column in OSU's student newspaper during the 2000 election, and I had two people tell me that they changed their vote after reading my columns. Who knows how many others I might have changed. By speaking out, I managed to influence the vote far more than I can with my one singular vote, and that is potentially very powerful.
This is why the current irresponsibility of the cooperate-owned, entertainment-focused media seriously freaks me out. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 18:55:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
OT wrote: | Constitution party all the way.,... Not (It really pisses me off they use that as their party name.) |
LOL!
I get what yer saying about leaders needing to push voting. That's definitely what I mean by civic duty being much more than just voting. Actually, I had a weekly column in OSU's student newspaper during the 2000 election, and I had two people tell me that they changed their vote after reading my columns. Who knows how many others I might have changed. By speaking out, I managed to influence the vote far more than I can with my one singular vote, and that is potentially very powerful.
This is why the current irresponsibility of the cooperate-owned, entertainment-focused media seriously freaks me out.
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Tell it like it is, Sister Martha!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 03:51:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
In my opinion: If you abstain, you cannot complain.
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That is of course, with respect, absurd. Voting is only part of democracy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 03:59:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
In my opinion: If you abstain, you cannot complain.
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That is of course, with respect, absurd. Voting is only part of democracy.
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As a link is a part of a chain, yes.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 05:11:12 [Permalink]
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I considered not voting, but IMHO, it is a cop-out, but I don't look at it from a "If you abstain, you cannot complain" pov. Difirent folks have difirent points of tolerance in their lives. There are periods I have to completely un-plug, because if I don't, the EII (empathetic influence of idiots) begins to cause too much stress, which will invaribly lead to stress, sleepless nights of obsession, and my Chron's flaring up....... I can't freakin' kill 'em, so I have to completely ignore them.....
I am not sure that 50% of the people not voting is the problem. It's part of the 50% that are that is plugged in to the bologna of this system. Just as the neo-cons figured certain things out, the other side has too.... and half the time I would venture to say it is misrepresentation of the power they will have, or outright lies about what the candidate will do. Half the votes comes from people who by it, the other half from people who don't, but always vote for "the party", and (as my freind puts it) the third half from people who don't have a clue.
I do wish I had more time... maybe later in life. THere are a few amendments I would like to see, and wish I had the time to organize some folks from the difirent states to get it done. Of course, that is assuming their are enough folks out their that would want the system reverted back a bit closer to it intentions.......
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| Edited by - Original_Intent on 08/15/2007 05:11:42 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 05:59:07 [Permalink]
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I do think that those who are not voting at present lend some support to the idea that those who are not voting are satisfied with the way things are.
However, the people who are voting for ideas and people with which they do not agree are also supporting a corrupt system.
Those who do agree with corrupt officials, and destructive policies are also supporting a corrupt system.
Voting may be a link in the chain of democracy, and democracy may be what we want to achieve, but voting when we do not have a truly democratic republic is not a link in the chain of a democratic republic.
If greater numbers refuse to vote until something is fixed, then those that are corrupt may prevail in the short term, but, unless it becomes illegal to abstain, it will have an impact on policy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 06:37:04 [Permalink]
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| I guess the point I'm suggesting would be that it may or may not be a good idea to abstain from voting, but if we had a bloc of people who stated beforehand that they are not voting and why, then that might have some influence. If not, it would at least have some integrity, rather than voting for the evil of two lessers. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/15/2007 06:39:01 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 07:03:54 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | If not, it would at least have some integrity, rather than voting for the evil of two lessers. |
Which decision reflects the most integrity is dependent on the system of ethics one is using. During the primaries, I vote my heart 'cause that's an option. But in the big race, I vote the lesser of two evils and try to happy and hopeful - though realistic - about it, and given the ethical system I'm trying my best to live my life by, that is showing integrity. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2007 : 07:08:59 [Permalink]
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| I would never judge the philosophical reasons why a person votes one way or another. The only time I would criticize anything about someone's choice about voting (even whether to vote or not) is if part of their motivation were something untrue or irrational. For instance, I know someone from the suburbs of Dayton, Ohio who said she voted for Bush - even though she is socially and economically more liberal and hates the Iraq war - based on her fear of terrorists and her belief that Bush would protect us more. That is a vote I would criticize because it is based on a lack of understanding of the current war on terror; She was in no personal danger of a terrorist attack, and Bush's record shows he's done little to reduce terrorist attacks in the world, and much to increase them. This was someone who based their vote on mindless hype, not hard facts. That I would criticize. But when we're talking about philosophical reasoning or political strategies regarding voting, as long as they are rational and based in reality, I can respect peoples' choices. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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On Voting
