|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 23:34:09 [Permalink]
|
Dave wrote: | I, for one, don't see any connection between a transcendant experience and "a sense of inner peace," nor any connection between that and empathy or compassion. |
Transcendant experiences give us new perspective, which can certainly ease or even eliminate inner turmoil (thus its relationship to inner peace).
I see this theme over and over again when I read books and articles about progressive religion and general spirituality. And I have to admit, it clicks with me, even if I don't always have a good grasp on the words to describe what I'm feeling and how the connections I'm drawing come together.
First, the connections are not literal. They are poetic, metaphorical, and work more like stream of consciousness. They are meaningful in that sense, not in the sense of a search for facts.
I recently heard an interview with Salman Rushdie, and he said something about novels revealing another reality that is not the natural world (and Rushdie identifies as an atheist and humanist, so clearly he's not talking about anything mystical.) I also recently heard an interview with a filmmaker who was asked how he captured the look and feel of East Germany before the wall fell. It turned out that he had simply eliminated a couple colors and that did the trick better than any painstaking re-creation of the actual reality of the setting at that time. How the natural world is isn't always how people experience it and especially how we remember it. I truly believe that religion and spirituality at its best is more related to art than science, in that it is searching for truths about our personal experience of life and identity, rather than facts about reality.
When Bidlack talked about his own Deism, he felt compelled, despite misgivings, to talk about personal matters and emotions. I think that's often why so many people with good religion get annoyed by atheists looking for a debate. Atheists listen to religious peoples' answers and then assume (wrongly) what the question was. Part of this miscommunication comes from the fact that most people do not intellectually operate the same way I think most atheists do. Whenever I discuss religion with progressive religious people, I always end up feeling like we're not talking about the same things. This is what has made me more curious about progressive religiosity in the first place. I'm trying to figure out how they are thinking.
|
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 08/16/2007 23:34:27 |
 |
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 10:32:30 [Permalink]
|
Here's my vain attempt at getting this thread up and running again, minus the insults and assumptions. Ricky wrote: | Marf made a really good OP and I was hoping this thread would continue that way. |
What are your thoughts on the subject Ricky?
Edited to add: Or anyone else for that matter. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 08/17/2007 10:33:05 |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 11:18:31 [Permalink]
|
| Transcendant experiences give us new perspective, which can certainly ease or even eliminate inner turmoil (thus its relationship to inner peace). |
Keep in mind that they can also be a negative experience. People almost universally consider enlightenment to be a purely positive experience from which only good things can sprout. Each person is enlightened in different ways and by different things. Some might consider losing God to be a wonderful revelation of free thought while another may find that losing God could be the catalyst for a suicidal depression.
|
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 08/17/2007 : 11:39:50 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
(...) Empathy and compassion come simply from being able to imagine yourself in another person's shoes, and thus get a grip on the emotional consequences - be they painful or joyful - of that person's circumstances. The ethic of reciprocity follows naturally from there, and upon that framework we can build a solid morality. (...)
|
Y'know, it's funny that you say that, because I tend to have empathy with animals of different species more often than to those of my own species, much to my dismay. Sometimes, to a degree that I start crying and trembling uncontrollably to the sight of an abused animal - dog, cat, goat, horse, doesn't matter. Maybe I'm just too sensitive to animal abuse, but, as I'm point-blank sure animals have feelings quite similar to ours - and lack the understanding to even try to rationalize their suffering - I guess that gets to me. And yes, I do feel guilty every single time I eat meat, even though I know a lion would do the courtesy of eating me if it had the chance.
As for the origin of empathy, I have no problems in seeing its evolutionary benefits. We are social animals; social animals tend to find security in numbers. To me, at least, it doesn't seem so strange that feeling a connection to others of your species strengthen the bond between members of said species and, indirectly, our own personal survival. The fact in us it's sugarcoated with the metaphysical is inconsequential, in my opinion. Of course, that's just opinion and I may be fantastically wrong.
As for the search of spirituality, as to speak, I guess I grok what you mean, Marf. I, too, like reading about the different religions, drawing parallels to the culture that birthed them, their forms of expression, the ideas behind them, so on and so forth. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
| Edited by - Siberia on 08/17/2007 11:45:21 |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 12:29:45 [Permalink]
|
BPSmurf wrote:
Keep in mind that they can also be a negative experience. People almost universally consider enlightenment to be a purely positive experience from which only good things can sprout. Each person is enlightened in different ways and by different things. Some might consider losing God to be a wonderful revelation of free thought while another may find that losing God could be the catalyst for a suicidal depression. |
Good point. You just reminded me of my transformation from an agnostic to an atheist. I had been deeply pondering the issue for months, and I was sitting by the side of the Olantangy River in Columbus, Ohio, and all of the sudden I had some kind of epiphany. I hadn't thought of any new intellectual arguments or anything logical or rational - it just all suddenly made sense to me in a grand beautiful way. Huh... I haven't thought about that in a long time. I guess one could say I became an atheist through a sort of spiritual experience. LOL.
But back to the negative stuff - my Mormon cousin learned meditation from a friend in college and practiced it for a while, and while he couldn't explain exactly why, it eventually seemed to make him paranoid and feel as if a darkness has come over him. To this day that is why he is leery of certain Eastern religious practices. BTW, he knows this is his personal experience and does not universally condemn such practices for others. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 12:34:52 [Permalink]
|
Sib wrote: | Y'know, it's funny that you say that, because I tend to have empathy with animals of different species more often than to those of my own species, much to my dismay. |
My dad is a journalist and he once spoke to me about how stories about animal abuse get more sympathy from the general public than stories of human abuse. His theory was that human suffering is too close to home and too great a problem for sympathetic people to always deal with, so they turn their feelings toward animals.
I have another theory, however. Animals are especially helpless. Unlike even children, they cannot speak or begin to understand on a human level what is happening to them. Perhaps it is that power dynamic between humans and animals that you agonize over? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 08/17/2007 12:36:08 |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 14:17:38 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Sib wrote: | Y'know, it's funny that you say that, because I tend to have empathy with animals of different species more often than to those of my own species, much to my dismay. |
My dad is a journalist and he once spoke to me about how stories about animal abuse get more sympathy from the general public than stories of human abuse. His theory was that human suffering is too close to home and too great a problem for sympathetic people to always deal with, so they turn their feelings toward animals.
I have another theory, however. Animals are especially helpless. Unlike even children, they cannot speak or begin to understand on a human level what is happening to them. Perhaps it is that power dynamic between humans and animals that you agonize over?
|
Probably, as I belatedly added to that post. Though, that feeling is shared by abuse to animals, small children and irretrivably handicapped people, even if it's stronger when it comes to animals. It may also be because I, like those three, am also quite helpless, so maybe it's easier for me to 'click' with them. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 23:40:08 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Lately I've been exploring my own spiritual side, even though I doubt I'll ever shed "atheist" as part of the description of my worldview. |
What is an individual's "spiritual" side and how does it differ from their intellectual or emotional sides? I'm not trying to be cute, I honestly can't imagine a "side" not already covered by those other two well-known and well-understood categories.
Then again, I'm young, so who knows? I'm becoming more interested in religion's relationship to two things:
1.) Morality
2.) States of transcendence |
1) None. 2) None.
Again, not trying to be cute. I consider those answers to encompass a lifetime of distilled research and analysis.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 23:51:30 [Permalink]
|
Just read this column, "I Say 'Atheist" For Several Good Reasons", which is related to this topic. http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=311&article=4
I find various aspects of this in conflict with each other, I agreed with some things, and disagreed with others. First, I find this person's attitude to be a bit of a throw back. There is little prejudice against the term "atheist" within the freethought community, but she implied many times that there is. She sort of wavers back and forth between championing the term "atheist" over others such as "humanist" and merely defending its use at all. First, there is the obvious: The word "humanist" is usually misunderstood. The Los Angeles Times once printed an article saluting Pope John Paul as a humanist.
People know what an atheist is. |
"Humanism" has many definitions and meanings, and some of the actions of Pope John Paul qualified him for one of those meanings. Humanism has a long and complex history. It is a liberating but not easy philosophy, for it has no dogma.
Atheism is not a philosophy. It is not a worldview. It is one characteristic of certain worldviews such as secular humanism and Zen Buddhism. If someone asks my religion, I would not say "None, I'm an atheist." and if someone asked my philosophy, I would not say "atheism" because that instantly implies that godlessness the main characteristic of my worldview. How shallow and limited. Limited especially considering some of the theological liberties some progressive believers take with the concept of "God".
Also, atheism is misunderstood just as much as humanism, if not more so. Most people simply don't know what humanism as a philosophy is, so if someone asks, you can explain it to them. It isn't that hard to memorize a "elevator speech" definition of humanism. The problem with atheism is that people think they know what it is, but often do not. Most people confuse it with anti-theism.
The bottom line is that when you are a religious minority - as atheists/humanists are - when people ask about your beliefs you usually have to explain a bit. That's just part of being a minority. | It is mostly people in the religious community who think that we have absolutely no morality. |
Yeeeah, that would be the majority of the country. Almost half of them according to polls would not vote for an atheist president, all things being equal. The idea that atheists are morally deficient extends beyond religious fanatics. | In spite of all these silly misconceptions and propaganda, almost everyone does know that we somehow manage to live our lives without a god belief, and when they see us living, laughing and loving as open atheists, they will likely be disabused of the fictions about us. |
For that to work there has to be enough of us out in the mainstream view. If there are not enough of us, outing ourselves in fact only makes us a bigger target for demonization and discrimination. | In countries where god-belief is causing great damage, as it is in the U.S., we must model a life fulfilled without faith. |
God-belief is not causing great damage, but if self-declared atheists run around declaring such an absurdity, they certainly won't be contributing to our popularity. Religious fanaticism has been causing said damage. We don't need to model a life fulfilled without faith. We need to model a humanistic-based ethic, and I'm talking small "h" humanism that is inclusive to modern theists and deists, not just atheists. Oh the irony of the last statement in this column: | I have no quarrel with the many good people who attribute their ethics to a humanist philosophy. The variety in American Christianity is a major reason this country has so many Christians, and we would do well to emulate that in the community of reason. I think we can and should to do this without also mimicking the intolerance of their certainty that they have found the one way. |
|
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 08/23/2007 00:04:06 |
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 06:26:24 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Lately I've been exploring my own spiritual side, even though I doubt I'll ever shed "atheist" as part of the description of my worldview. |
Posted by HH
What is an individual's "spiritual" side and how does it differ from their intellectual or emotional sides? I'm not trying to be cute, I honestly can't imagine a "side" not already covered by those other two well-known and well-understood categories. |
I don't think we actually have different 'sides', like an angel and a devil on our shoulders. I don't think marf is saying that either she is discussing the transcendent aspect of herself.
I have had spiritual or transcendent experiences. One such experience was when I was in Caribbean Sea. I had been on a stinking submarine for about 2 weeks doing ops, but since a hurricane was coming our support ships left and we had noting to do. We surfaced and just floated in place, many of us went 'topside' and watched the sunset. It is hard to explain but there were a series of cloud banks that started overhead and went past the horizon. You could see that they were curved over the globe. As the sun was setting I literally 'felt' like I was on a rotating planet and watching a stationary sun. Of course that is exactly what is happening but it doesn't normally look like that or feel like that. On that day for whatever reason it did feel exactly like that. For some reason this experience seemed very profound - I felt like I was 'part' of the greater solar system and universe - I guess because I was not just intellectualizing the earth / sun relationship but actually experiencing it. Like I said it is hard to explain.
So I would say that is part of my spiritual side. Is it separate from my intellectual side, of course not. I probably would not have had that experience if I was unaware that we are on a planet orbiting the sun. But that type of experience is much different than intellectualizing about reality. Do I think we have a spirit? no, do I think there is anything magical or supernatural about these experience? no, but I do think you can have a profound experience (revelation if you like) in the confines of skepticism.
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Theistic and Deistic skeptics
