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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 09:47:56 [Permalink]
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Beyond that, do you have any idea what incredible good $20. can do in some places? The average annual income of individuals in several countries is around $300-$400. Just $300. can send a teenager in Kenya or Ethiopia to boarding school for an entire year, where they are likely to get a much better education and be able to earn more money in their lifetime.
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Yes, and children are starving in Africa, so eat your beans. I agree you can take that too far, but $20 is not millions, and those people who gave to Mother Teresa gave because they believed a lie. Maybe not a lie she told, but one she had to know about, and therefore she supported.
If you're mad at the victims, I don't understand. If you're saying Mother Teresa was also a victim, I'll say that's okay. But she knew what she was doing nonetheless. She was an atheist who would not admit it. She may have been afraid to admit it, but she was an atheist who was afraid to admit it, even to herself. I now have to say technically, that means she was not an atheist. And I suspect most adults are atheists who are afraid to admit it to themselves and others. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 09:49:52 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 10:36:00 [Permalink]
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Ok, she had a "crisis of faith." Everyone should have one now and again. It's good for the intellect.
So I ask: where did all that money go? I don't recall that she ever lived in opulence. I mostly recall that she spent a lot of time in some of the world's foulest slums braving such afflictions as malaria, typhoid fever, various endo & exoparasites, and even leprosy, a too-common disease in India.
Does the Church have the money, those many millions? I dunno. Maybe. <shrug> Probably.....
I've read that the Church has discussed putting her on a fast track for sainthood, rather like the late Pope. Ceremonial silliness, but perhaps a little value returned for filling the coffers, eh?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 10:47:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
No, it wasn't tunnel vision – I thought of that, I just wasn't impressed by it. IMO this forum doesn't make much of an impact with regards to alleviating pain in the world. |
Well, what can I say, marf? You say you've considered the larger picture, are unimpressed, but then talk about short-sighted crap for yourself. This web site, including its forum, is not itself a goal, but simply a tool in service of a much, much larger goal (a goal that certainly won't be reached in my lifetime). Perhaps you're simply unaware of that, but then the idea that things are always as they seem to be on the surface is one of the problems we're trying to combat, so perhaps we are failing. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 10:55:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by marfknox
No, it wasn't tunnel vision – I thought of that, I just wasn't impressed by it. IMO this forum doesn't make much of an impact with regards to alleviating pain in the world. |
Well, what can I say, marf? You say you've considered the larger picture, are unimpressed, but then talk about short-sighted crap for yourself. This web site, including its forum, is not itself a goal, but simply a tool in service of a much, much larger goal (a goal that certainly won't be reached in my lifetime). Perhaps you're simply unaware of that, but then the idea that things are always as they seem to be on the surface is one of the problems we're trying to combat, so perhaps we are failing.
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Y'know, going on a tangent that makes me think of the usual argument "why spend millions studying [insert field of study] when you could be sending those millions to [insert immediate relief program] to help [insert some grave problem]?" |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 11:16:42 [Permalink]
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So I ask: where did all that money go?
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According to Hitchen's book, as I recall, they don't have to report anything, so no one but Mother Teresa and the church knew. Not sure if the church knew.
I hear that a lot of money went to build convents. A lot of money sat in bank accounts, I think. I also think that "The Church" has a lot of it.
She lived in poverty, that is, not owning anything herself, but like a lot of poor clerics, she went around the world in limos and jets. Did you hear James Randi's account of Pearl Bailey and Teresa?
It seems at a talk show green room, James Randi let Pearl know that he didn't think much of god. Pearl said that she wouldn't see him after they died. James agreed. At that moment, Teresa walked in with a couple of nuns that probably used to be linebackers, according to Randi. Pearl went over to gush to Teresa, and Teresa barked, "can't you see I'm praying?" Teresa went out for her few minutes of Teresa ego-raising and fund-raising for who knows what, and sped off in her limo without a word to anyone else. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 11:16:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Y'know, going on a tangent that makes me think of the usual argument "why spend millions studying [insert field of study] when you could be sending those millions to [insert immediate relief program] to help [insert some grave problem]?" |
And really, that's my main point. Without any objectively "best" way of alleviating the pain on this planet, it's fairly blinkered to be talking about which method is "better than" which other method (assuming that we're reasonable people, and so we're not wasting time comparing "feeding the children of Africa" to "euthanizing the children of Africa"). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 11:49:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
So I ask: where did all that money go?
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According to Hitchen's book, as I recall, they don't have to report anything, so no one but Mother Teresa and the church knew. Not sure if the church knew.
I hear that a lot of money went to build convents. A lot of money sat in bank accounts, I think. I also think that "The Church" has a lot of it.
She lived in poverty, that is, not owning anything herself, but like a lot of poor clerics, she went around the world in limos and jets. Did you hear James Randi's account of Pearl Bailey and Teresa?
It seems at a talk show green room, James Randi let Pearl know that he didn't think much of god. Pearl said that she wouldn't see him after they died. James agreed. At that moment, Teresa walked in with a couple of nuns that probably used to be linebackers, according to Randi. Pearl went over to gush to Teresa, and Teresa barked, "can't you see I'm praying?" Teresa went out for her few minutes of Teresa ego-raising and fund-raising for who knows what, and sped off in her limo without a word to anyone else.
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Then at worst, she was merely a shill for the Vatican Everlasting Three-Card Monte Game. Hell, no wonder she doubted her faith and got ill with Pearl (I hadn't heard about that encounter).
I suspect that she went where she was told to go and said what she was told to say. It is doubtful that she had much authority of her own beyond her fetid, little Indian baliwick, and her greatest contribution to her church was her extensive nondenominational popularity. That kind of popularity is a money machine any way you cut it, and any TV preacher would kill to have it.
One speculates that she was played for a sucker right along with all of the faithful.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 12:00:29 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | those people who gave to Mother Teresa gave because they believed a lie. Maybe not a lie she told, but one she had to know about, and therefore she supported. |
For there to be a lie, there must be a liar. Who told this lie? I don't think anyone told a lie. I think there are a good number of people who supported Mother Theresa because they agreed with what she was really doing, and I think a good number of people supported her out of their own ignorance. And that ignorance is the responsibility of the people practicing it. Mother Theresa was too busy doing her thing to try to dispel public misunderstanding of her work, and I find it questionable that she was connected enough with well-off people in the modern world to understand how most of them saw her.
| If you're mad at the victims, I don't understand. |
What victims are you talking about? There were many victims of extreme poverty that she worked with, but somehow I think you are talking about another kind of victimhood.
| If you're saying Mother Teresa was also a victim, I'll say that's okay. But she knew what she was doing nonetheless. She was an atheist who would not admit it. She may have been afraid to admit it, but she was an atheist who was afraid to admit it, even to herself. I now have to say technically, that means she was not an atheist. And I suspect most adults are atheists who are afraid to admit it to themselves and others. |
I find this to be a convoluted analysis that assumes much with any stated evidence.
Dave wrote: | Well, what can I say, marf? You say you've considered the larger picture, are unimpressed, but then talk about short-sighted crap for yourself. This web site, including its forum, is not itself a goal, but simply a tool in service of a much, much larger goal (a goal that certainly won't be reached in my lifetime). Perhaps you're simply unaware of that, but then the idea that things are always as they seem to be on the surface is one of the problems we're trying to combat, so perhaps we are failing. |
I understand the mission of this site. I understand that SFN is not a goal in-of-itself. I simply hold a different opinion and perspective on this matter, Dave, and it largely comes from over 10 years of deep involvement with the freethought movement that skepticism is part of. I don't think skepticism works well as an organized movement, and I rather think that the organized movement is more the result of cultural trends that started long before, rather than an effective force for social change itself. This doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't engage in it, or be passionate about it, or that remarkable individuals don't rise up out of it, or that it doesn't have the potential for making big cultural ripples, for better or for worse. I'm just saying that it isn't exactly a direct route, and potential is just that: potential.
In short, IMO, most of the members on this forum are not doing anything benevolent or humanitarian by simply conversing on or reading this forum. That doesn't mean it isn't an enriching and worthwhile pastime.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 12:03:02 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 13:59:23 [Permalink]
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I find this to be a convoluted analysis that assumes much with any stated evidence. |
Please don't blame your inability to understand on others. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 14:00:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
In short, IMO, most of the members on this forum are not doing anything benevolent or humanitarian by simply conversing on or reading this forum. That doesn't mean it isn't an enriching and worthwhile pastime.
Can you disagree without suggesting that I'm unaware, hypocritical, or have a shallow perspective? |
No, now that you've qualified your statement, I'll largely agree with it. "Seriously, every minute spent on this forum, you could be out trying to make the world a less painful place," on the other hand, reads like a blanket condemnation of our mission.| This is pretty much one of my initial points. Was I misunderstood? |
Apparently, and it seems that I was misunderstood in turn, because you kept offering your rather dreary opinions of my goals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 14:34:51 [Permalink]
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It is doubtful that she had much authority of her own beyond her fetid, little Indian baliwick, and her greatest contribution to her church was her extensive nondenominational popularity. That kind of popularity is a money machine any way you cut it, and any TV preacher would kill to have it.
One speculates that she was played for a sucker right along with all of the faithful.
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According to Hitchens, she wasn't much liked by the church until Muggeridge helped to make her a pop goddess. At that point, I'm guessing, and only guessing, they gave her free rein as long as they got a cut. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:29:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
It is doubtful that she had much authority of her own beyond her fetid, little Indian baliwick, and her greatest contribution to her church was her extensive nondenominational popularity. That kind of popularity is a money machine any way you cut it, and any TV preacher would kill to have it.
One speculates that she was played for a sucker right along with all of the faithful.
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According to Hitchens, she wasn't much liked by the church until Muggeridge helped to make her a pop goddess. At that point, I'm guessing, and only guessing, they gave her free rein as long as they got a cut.
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From what I've read of the Vatican, they play 'em close to the vest, and I really can't see them letting a cash cow like MT on a too loose leash. I mean, we're not talking organized crime here; we're talking the Vatican. Historically, they make the Mafia look like a bunch of enept grammer school bullies, and it seems unlikely that they've much changed their ways beyond adding a little subtlety. I think that they knew of and accounted for every dollar that she brought in.
But it's all moot now. The money's long laundered and MT's gone on to oblivion. The last thing to be done is canonize her, which will be a highly popular move and certainly worth setting up a charitable foundation named for her as a saint. That ought'a get the gelt flowin' again!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:38:16 [Permalink]
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You're probably right on all counts, Fil.
She was a bit of a loose cannon before she struck it rich, so I assume that she was more of a loose cannon after. That's all we can do is assume. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 15:39:33 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 15:43:35 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | "Seriously, every minute spent on this forum, you could be out trying to make the world a less painful place," on the other hand, reads like a blanket condemnation of our mission. |
Does this mean that you also thought I was making a blanket condemnation of going out to dinner and buying new clothing?
I'm sorry my statement was confusing - I thought my meaning would be clear from the context.
Gorgo wrote: | Please don't blame your inability to understand on others. |
No, I really thought your analysis was convoluted and made claims without evidence. Let me be more specific. You wrote: | If you're saying Mother Teresa was also a victim, I'll say that's okay. But she knew what she was doing nonetheless. She was an atheist who would not admit it. She may have been afraid to admit it, but she was an atheist who was afraid to admit it, even to herself. I now have to say technically, that means she was not an atheist. And I suspect most adults are atheists who are afraid to admit it to themselves and others. |
First, what do you mean by calling MT a "victim"? Victim of what? If she is a victim, who is the perpetrator? You assume she was "afraid" to give in to her feelings of doubt, but that is an assumption. Evidence? You say that her feelings of doubt amount to a sort of atheism (again, I guess I believe in zombies when I'm feeling paranoid!) but then you say she's not really an atheist because intellectually she still believed in her faith. Then you say that you think most adults also lack the feelings of god's presence, but intellectually hold on to their religious beliefs out of fear. I totally disagree. In fact, I tend to think the opposite, at least of Americans. I think most Americans do feel the presence of the sacred or God, or whatever they decide to call the object of their religious worship, but a good number of them don't have much of an intellectual grasp on their beliefs, and if you asked them to explain the literal nature of their beliefs, they'd be hard pressed to do so. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/27/2007 15:44:21 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2007 : 16:21:42 [Permalink]
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| First, what do you mean by calling MT a "victim"? |
I was trying to decipher your point. What is your point regarding Mother Teresa? Was she some kind of hero to you, or what?
| You say that her feelings of doubt amount to a sort of atheism (again, I guess I believe in zombies when I'm feeling paranoid!) |
You believe in fear when you're paranoid.
What separates Mother Teresa from atheists is that she is lying to herself. She realizes she has no evidence of gods, gods do not speak to her, or intervene in her life, yet she outwardly portrays herself as a theist, and inwardly struggles with the idea that there is no basis for what she says outwardly. If what we were talking about wasn't religion, she would be called a liar.
She knew the money she took from Keating was stolen. She decided to keep it. That in itself is fraud. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/27/2007 16:37:11 |
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Crisis of Faith- Time Mag
