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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2007 : 17:59:14 [Permalink]
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I think everyone is having a hard time reading the sentence.
The beginning is the WHY a restriction is not allowed.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed, because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State.
One can not discount the language structure in an old contract to redefine the contract.
It has been stated many times that zero powers NOT written into the constitution can not be exercised by the federal government. Until you can find the power given to the federal government in the constitution to restrict gun ownership any other argument is feeble.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:13:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Original_Intent
Now, we could go on with what the militia is, and just who it is, and why it isn't really what it is but should be..... but.... |
Read the portions of the Constitution itself that refer to militias. It's pretty clear what they had in mind and who would be in control.
Could you imagine compulsory training? That would be pretty funny.....
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Like the requirement for all school aged children to attend school, public or private, and to be capable of performing to a certain level on standardized tests? |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:15:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It has been stated many times that zero powers NOT written into the constitution can not be exercised by the federal government. Until you can find the power given to the federal government in the constitution to restrict gun ownership any other argument is feeble.
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You keep forgetting about State, County and City governments. Unless your gun right is constitutionally protected, they can take it away. |
-Chaloobi
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:25:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It has been stated many times that zero powers NOT written into the constitution can not be exercised by the federal government. Until you can find the power given to the federal government in the constitution to restrict gun ownership any other argument is feeble.
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You keep forgetting about State, County and City governments. Unless your gun right is constitutionally protected, they can take it away.
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Are you aware of the revolution? Have you read the Deceleration of Independence?
| That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,... |
How; pray tell, does a people abolish a government that has disarmed them?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 19:38:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It has been stated many times that zero powers NOT written into the constitution can not be exercised by the federal government. Until you can find the power given to the federal government in the constitution to restrict gun ownership any other argument is feeble.
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You keep forgetting about State, County and City governments. Unless your gun right is constitutionally protected, they can take it away.
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If the federal government has the right to call up a militia, how can the states disarm the people?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:02:01 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Are you aware of the revolution? Have you read the Deceleration of Independence? |
Maybe they should have copied the Declaration of Independence into the constitution. But they didn't.
You do realize that the Declaration is not in any way a governing document, right?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:09:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Jerome:
Are you aware of the revolution? Have you read the Deceleration of Independence? |
Maybe they should have copied the Declaration of Independence into the constitution. But they didn't.
You do realize that the Declaration is not in any way a governing document, right?
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Of course it is not a governing documnet. The point is the ideas set down in that document are essential to understanding what is meant in the constitution. This document; among others, written by the same group of men around the same time tell us what they are attempting in the constitution. To discount these sorts of writings is to pretend to guess what is meant.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:24:33 [Permalink]
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| If the federal government has the right to call up a militia, how can the states disarm the people? |
Uh, by passing laws on gun control. You do realize when you leave the army you don't get to take your M-16 home with you.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 20:36:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
| If the federal government has the right to call up a militia, how can the states disarm the people? |
Uh, by passing laws on gun control. You do realize when you leave the army you don't get to take your M-16 home with you.
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You must understand that the militia is all able bodied men. The army is not the militia. The militia can be called to serve in the army. And they were expected to bring their own weapons. Professional soldiers are needed for Empires, not Republics.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:11:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
So if this militia stills exists, what need was/is there for Selective Service and the Draft?
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The beginning of the Empire. Congress passed the selective service law in 1917.
REMEMBER THE LUSITANIA!
An interesting aside:
A warning was printed in the papers: payed for by Germany. |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:18:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
So if this militia stills exists, what need was/is there for Selective Service and the Draft? |
The beginning of the Empire. Congress passed the selective service law in 1917. |
Let me try again: if the militia mentioned in the Constitution still exists, what need is there for Selective Service?
And if that militia no longer exists (thus the need for Selective Service), what force could the Second Amendment possibly have? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:22:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
So if this militia stills exists, what need was/is there for Selective Service and the Draft? |
The beginning of the Empire. Congress passed the selective service law in 1917. |
Let me try again: if the militia mentioned in the Constitution still exists, what need is there for Selective Service?
And if that militia no longer exists (thus the need for Selective Service), what force could the Second Amendment possibly have?
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That is the crux!
We no longer live under the constitution!?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 04:37:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
That is the crux!
We no longer live under the constitution!?
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I think the real crux is the 2nd Amendment is no longer relevant and was never intended as a protection for everyone to be armed outside of the context of supporting a government controlled militia. |
-Chaloobi
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 07:49:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
That is the crux!
We no longer live under the constitution!?
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I think the real crux is the 2nd Amendment is no longer relevant and was never intended as a protection for everyone to be armed outside of the context of supporting a government controlled militia.
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This is debatable; obviously. The ultimate point is that America only uses a shadow of the constitution currently. There are many; much more overt, examples of this fact.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Second Amendment
