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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/31/2007 : 08:01:30
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This happened in Indiana: Mother: Dress Code Unfairly Targets Religion
The mother of a student who was suspended for violating her school system's dress code says the rules unfairly target religion, WRTV in Indianapolis reported.
Tracy Prochnow said Highland High School in Indiana suspended her daughter, Brittany Brown, on Monday because the junior wore a Christian-themed T-shirt.
. . .
The front of Brittany's T-shirt features a cross and the words "This Shirt Is Illegal In 51 Countries." The back quotes the Bible's Romans 1:16: "I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God ... the salvation of everyone who believes."
. . .
The school's principal, Mark Finger, said the dress code doesn't target religious beliefs.
"The policy states there are to be no logos or slogans on a shirt," Finger said. |
IMO, the mother and daughter are chock full of it. The dress code has nothing directly to do with religion, and probably much more to do with banning gang colors and giving kids a level sartorial playing field.
Of course any fundy can manufacture a way to make a holy stink about false discrimination (poor, oppressed Christians!) and get some publicity if they try hard enough. This woman's got her kid suspended for violation of the dress code four times. She is, in my opinion, either cynically, or due to paranoia, trying to inject a religious spin into a secular policy that is unrelated to religion. And she's using, and abusing, her child as a willing pawn in the process.
I somehow doubt these people would support a Muslim kid's "right" to wear Koranic quotes on his shirt. Or a Buddhist's "right" to have an image of the Buddha on her shirt.
My sister, brother, and I would have welcomed such a simple dress code, as mine was a poor family. Many kids dressed fancier than we could.
Front of the shirt.
Back of the shirt.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/31/2007 09:45:41
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2007 : 08:47:50 [Permalink]
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This stuff always chaps my butt, too. If the rule is written and enforced in an unbiased manner then mom should clam up and buy some plain white t's.
Every year my kids' high school threatens uniforms. I have mixed feelings about it, but it sure would simplify the dress code... AND I wouldn't have to listen to my daughters complain they have nothing to wear. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2007 : 08:56:55 [Permalink]
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Monday was the fourth time Brittany violated the code, which the city's school board implemented this year and requires students to wear khakis and polo shirts. |
They are playing the religious card and the press fell for it hook-line-and-sinker.
Kids have it too easy these days.
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Yojimbo99
New Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2007 : 10:29:30 [Permalink]
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I hope the school does not cave to this crap, many of the neighboring cities and towns around the area have been going to some form of uniform dress codes, and I for one think it is a good idea. Last year the neighboring city of Hammond suspended 128 students the first day of classes. I do not think they will be able to get around the dress code only if because of the ammount of schools in the area enforcing them rather strictly and unbiased.
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It's not so much wanting to die, but controlling that moment, choosing your own way. - GG Allin
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 00:46:58 [Permalink]
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It just hit me: These folks want to appear to be fighting bias, but their real objective is to inject their own bias. The religious neutrality of a secular school will never satisfy them.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 21:26:49 [Permalink]
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When my kids were in public schools, they had similar dress codes. They were not allowed to wear shirts with any sayings on them or hats with anything but sports teams regulated caps or school logos. There were other rules, but I rather liked this one myself. My kids grew up in the Los Angeles School district and dress codes were an important part of the saftey for all the kids. I would have welcomed uniforms. When the kids dont have to worry about what they are going to wear and whether or not they would fit in, they can, in theroy, worry about their school work. Anyway, thats the idea.
As for this mom. Shame on her. This is another form of child abuse if ever I saw one. Maybe the religous free government should step in and take the child from her. What kind of education is she going to get if she keeps getting suspended or expeled? And just how will she get into a decent college with this on her record. May be she thinks God will provide for her education. |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 23:08:22 [Permalink]
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I have a few good atheist T-shirts:
Smile, there is no hell. (has a giant smiley face on it)
GODLESS (in big silver lettering and a black outline)
No Gods No Masters (slogan from Margaret Sanger's feminist newsletter)
If a school has a casual dress policy and generally good student behavior, I could see kids being allowed to wear such t-shirts. But a policy against it is also practical and in some cases could be necessary, depending on the school. She can still wear it to sports events, after and outside of school, so what's the big deal if she can't wear it in school. *rolls eyes* |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 23:50:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I have a few good atheist T-shirts:
Smile, there is no hell. (has a giant smiley face on it)
GODLESS (in big silver lettering and a black outline)
No Gods No Masters (slogan from Margaret Sanger's feminist newsletter)
If a school has a casual dress policy and generally good student behavior, I could see kids being allowed to wear such t-shirts. But a policy against it is also practical and in some cases could be necessary, depending on the school. She can still wear it to sports events, after and outside of school, so what's the big deal if she can't wear it in school. *rolls eyes*
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Right on. You know, I think this tends to illustrate what I think is kind of a distinction without a big difference between "Old" and "New" atheists. You and I, on opposing sides about proselytizing atheism (assuming I understand correctly), would probably draw an almost identical line on issues like this. I think we'd both be in favor of allowing prayer at schools, organized by kids outside of classroom activity, though we might differ on just how silly such prayer itself is. And we'd probably both oppose teacher-led prayers in public schools.
A lot of religious people (maybe or maybe not most) would agree on where the line should be drawn.
That's pretty close agreement, from any outside observer's viewpoint.
I really do think the main difference between Old and New atheism is personal style, rather than in a disagreement upon facts. Of course, as humans, we always reserve the right to get heated about anything.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/01/2007 23:56:20 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 10:22:35 [Permalink]
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Too bad we don't have a societal dress code.
Just kidding...
Not
Well, half kidding, but feeling a bit fascist today...... |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 10:55:57 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner wrote: Right on. You know, I think this tends to illustrate what I think is kind of a distinction without a big difference between "Old" and "New" atheists. You and I, on opposing sides about proselytizing atheism (assuming I understand correctly), would probably draw an almost identical line on issues like this. I think we'd both be in favor of allowing prayer at schools, organized by kids outside of classroom activity, though we might differ on just how silly such prayer itself is. And we'd probably both oppose teacher-led prayers in public schools.
A lot of religious people (maybe or maybe not most) would agree on where the line should be drawn.
That's pretty close agreement, from any outside observer's viewpoint.
I really do think the main difference between Old and New atheism is personal style, rather than in a disagreement upon facts. Of course, as humans, we always reserve the right to get heated about anything. |
You are probably right on the differences. Like I've said, I still like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennet and all that they've done for freethought and the promotion of science (although I really do not like Sam Harris at all.)
When I say that proselytizing is wrong, I mean something specific. To me, wearing a T-shirt or writing and publishing articles which express and promote one's personal worldview is fine. I just wrote and submitted an article to NPR's "This I Believe" (Penn Gillette did an essay for them about beliving in no god) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4538138 In the section for "Essay Writing Tips" they advise: | Please avoid preaching or editorializing. Tell us what you do believe, not what you don't believe. Avoid speaking in the editorial "we." Make your essay about you; speak in the first person. |
When I went over my own essay I ended up deleting the word "should" from a paragraph because it sounded preachy, and by rephrasing I could say the exact same thing in a more palatable tone. I love that segment on NPR because I feel it promotes pluralism through example rather than lip service in favor of the general concept. I more often than not disagree with the beliefs of others, but I'm always moved by their personal stories and their humanity, and I always feel I understand them a little better after hearing the personal stories in a way which makes them explicitly personal.
When one seeks to convert others on a personal level through unsolicited preaching and pestering, that is what I call proselytizing, and then I get upset. I may not like when Dawkins refers to religious schools as "child abuse", but I love it when he says that he thinks it is wrong to label and instill a child with any worldview including atheism.
So yeah, I think the difference between old and the New Atheists has something to do with personal style. To compare us to Christians, I suppose I see the old guard as like believers who "evangelize" indirectly through example and who aren't so arrogant as to think they can know who is or isn't saved, and I see the New Atheists like those in-your-face evangelicals who bug everyone they know at every opportunity they can about accepting Jesus into their hearts. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/02/2007 10:58:06 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 11:22:20 [Permalink]
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I suppose this means that my grand daughter can't wear her "Bush Sucks" tee to kindegarten any more, alas.
As long as it's within reason, I have no problems with a dress code, especally if it will help to make our students look like something other than Cambodian refugees.
When I was in school, wearing a tee shirt of any sort was unheard of. I don't think it cost me anything.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 12:06:06 [Permalink]
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If the government was not running the majority of education this would not be a problem. Individuals could choose where to send their children to which ever school promoted or allowed their beliefs.
edit:spelling
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
| Edited by - JEROME DA GNOME on 09/02/2007 12:07:16 |
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Penyprity
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 12:40:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If the government was not running the majority of education this would not be a problem. Individuals could choose where to send their children to which ever school promoted or allowed their beliefs.
edit:spelling
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That is a differnt topic. This mom could send her daughter to a religion based school, I suppose. Depends on her means. But to suggest that government not be involved in the schools only means the rich kids get an education and the poor kids get nothing. Or the nearest thing to nothing. It leads us back to the voucher issue, which I, for one, am sick of. |
Make your vote count. Become a supreme court justice......Peny |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 13:00:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Penyprity
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If the government was not running the majority of education this would not be a problem. Individuals could choose where to send their children to which ever school promoted or allowed their beliefs.
edit:spelling
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That is a differnt topic. This mom could send her daughter to a religion based school, I suppose. Depends on her means. But to suggest that government not be involved in the schools only means the rich kids get an education and the poor kids get nothing. Or the nearest thing to nothing. It leads us back to the voucher issue, which I, for one, am sick of.
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Well, not true. If the taxes collected to run the government school system was left in the hands of the citizens than people would have plenty of money to pay for school. In fact without the monopoly structure that we currently have the cost of education would decline rapidly and the quality would increase rapidly.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 13:30:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If the taxes collected to run the government school system was left in the hands of the citizens than people would have plenty of money to pay for school. In fact without the monopoly structure that we currently have the cost of education would decline rapidly and the quality would increase rapidly. |
Start a new thread and prove it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2007 : 14:07:00 [Permalink]
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Jerome wrote: | If the government was not running the majority of education this would not be a problem. Individuals could choose where to send their children to which ever school promoted or allowed their beliefs. |
You're really stretching to inject your political rantings into this thread.
Even if your claim that if we didn't have taxes for education people would have "plenty of money" to send their kids to alternative schools, to assume that parents everywhere will have reasonable choices is not supported by reality. In places of high poverty, cultural homogeny, and/or low population density, people will certainly not have much of a choice. And while it is easy to say "Then move to somewhere better!" in reality, moving often requires capital, and the most desirable places to live tend to have much higher cost of living.
Currently in Philly the trend has been to funnel funds out of the hands of the public school system and "empower" parents by allowing them to choose to send their kid to a charter school for free. The problem, as predicted by critics of charter schooling, is that the quality of charter schools varies even more wildly than public schools, and while the entire district of Philadelphia schools is affected by the funding cuts, some places in the city offer zero charter school alternatives, even bad ones.
In history, places that had good education for all or most involved a whole community effort. You seem to think that community cannot include government. But that is what democracy is supposed to be.
Anyway, to bring this back to the topic, in places of cultural homegeny and low population density (such as small towns) there would likely be only the option of schools which explicitly promote a particular worldview, which is even worse than attempting neutrality, which is what public schools are supposed to do. When public schools get religious and political neutrality right (meaning they are truly secular and promote critical thinking in the students!) it encourages diversity and opens students' minds. This is a great goal to strive for. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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School allows no text on shirts. And this is bad?
