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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 00:39:04 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
My wife and child will be pissed about the neglect.
Yes, how well I know. That is one of the almost inevitable consequences of pursuing remuneration much over $100K a year. For a young person, somewhere between 200 and 300K becomes well nigh irresistable. That is why I set the Director's salary at $500k. However, age tends to temper values considerably in this respect and there has been more than one highly successful businessman or high-level professional walk away in their forties to smell the flowers.
The only "further consideration" that's going to be possible with sightings that leave us at dead ends for explanations will be speculation. My billionaire boss can get wild guessing for free on the Internet, and it'd be worth every penny paid.
Then you would dismiss them as inexplicable and classify as closed x-files?
If that's what the data warrants. If the investigation leads to a conclusion of "it may have been a something-or-other," then attempting to re-create that something-or-other might lend support to the idea that it was a something-or-other.
Good. That shows remarkable lack of skepicitus.
No, that's just the first step.
Very good. This, together with the above, says to me that you feel there may be many dimensions to this problem requiring the application of many disciplines to unravel it - if indeed such unraveling is possible.
One of the more-common phenomena related to UAPs is that some people reject mundane explanations (when available) in favor of fantasy
I don't understand. Please expand this with reference to my paragraph quoted above your quoted reply.
Focusing on historical data might allow us to predict new data without having to gather exabytes of empty-sky video.
Predict new data? How do you analyze predicted data? Make a hypothesis of a hypothesis and proceed to test it? I don't understand again.
I don't only have lousy communication skills, I have lousy comprehension skills. Treat me gently, Dave.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 01:14:01 [Permalink]
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Cune.....
Well, it would be hard to say no. A salary of $500k a year is far more than I make now, and far more than I'm likely to make over many years. And with a lot of that still in the bank after five years (or more, should the Institute still have funding), I could probably do OK even if my career in academia would be over.
Good thinking. That's the American Way, all right. And it actually happens (not with UAP) hundreds of times each year in this country. Think tanks, philantropies, investigative committees,etc., all absorbing academics into the administration of what are basically intellectual endeavors.
If you really produced for the billionaire some meaningful explanations for the type of phenomena I have specified, or were able to penetrate some of the supposed "black" activities that Haisch and many others allude to, you would be able to found your own University of Assyriological Studies and build your own Tower of Babyl. With your own money.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 01:35:34 [Permalink]
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To all participants in this thread.
Thank you for your contributions. This (these) trains of thought have been very valuable to me and I consider almost all of this current discourse productive and useful.
I still would welcome comment from others that may be reading this or who participated in the original thread - comment on on any of the questions or topics that have been introduced here.
And I strongly hope that those who said they had some specific notions as to How to Investigate UAP - Boron, Kil et al., will offer those ideas before we run out of thread space and the dreaded Masque of the Red Death appears. Dave, (whom I am liking better paragraph by paragraph), has given excellent response to the hypothetical.
In addition to the above, I am enjoying it hugely! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 08:51:32 [Permalink]
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My plan, if you can call it that…
I am not a scientist. And being a fan of science and having a pretty good understanding of the workings of science does not qualify me to come up with a plan of attack.
However, as an administrator, I would assemble the best team of scientists money can buy, and I would listen to them. I would explain to them that goal is not conclusion driven. Good science must trump any perceived wishful thinking by our benefactor or any concern that our funds will dry up if we don't deliver on any preconceived notion.
On a hunch, the first scientist I would hire would be someone whose expertise is in atmospheric science. Someone with an interest in certain kinds of anomalous behaviors associated with lightning and similar atmospheric occurrences. An example of that would be an interest in the still controversial subject of ball lightning and other anomalies such as visible artifacts of known occurrences in weather.
I would want someone with a military background familiar with whatever physical object the military might have up there at any given time. Knowledge of satellites, weather balloons and who knows what else (secret projects?) would be helpful.
I would want a psychologist to determine how to best question eyewitnesses of UAP events and to work out how to analyze the answers to whatever questionnaire they come up with. (A meta-analysis of all previous interviews would surely be helpful.)
I'm sure there are others who I would want on the team, and that may come to me as I ponder the problem. It could be that the scientists themselves could advise me on what other scientific experts, and in what in specific areas of science are needed, if any.
At least in the beginning of the research, the emphasis would be to rule out any incidents that can be plausibly explained. As a critical thinker, I would probably not pursue alternative explanations if they were not equally plausible.
Where we would go from there is anyone's guess. I would continue to defer to the experts on that…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 10:19:25 [Permalink]
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I would add a computer person who is adept in matters of photoshopping and image manipulation, as most of the hoaxs will be of the photograpghic type and lastly a good Skeptic, perhaps someone who is a knowledgable of sleight of hand and deception in general, like a magician.
Good luck, and I hope you dont find any hostiles. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2007 : 14:23:46 [Permalink]
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To Moderator and all members.....
I am grateful to Kil, Big Papa, Dave, Dude, Filthy, and Jerome for their contributions in the form of direct response as to "How to Investigate (select) UAP."
I would like to try and persuade Boron and Cune to give their specific ideas on administrating the hypothetical Institute.
I would like to invite Halfmooner, H. Humbert, On Fire for Christ, Moakley, Ricky, Valiant Dancer, Ghost Skeptic, Furshur, Dr. Mabuse, Marty, Marfknox, and The Rat to contribute their views on this topic, as their comments were very useful in the first thread.
Finally, I would hope that we all can continue to refrain from perjorative and insult as has largely been the case in this thread. I believe it raises the dialog to a higher and more useful level.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2007 : 21:55:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I would like to invite Halfmooner, H. Humbert, On Fire for Christ, Moakley, Ricky, Valiant Dancer, Ghost Skeptic, Furshur, Dr. Mabuse, Marty, Marfknox, and The Rat to contribute their views on this topic, as their comments were very useful in the first thread.
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Thank you for your invitation, but I have currently not enough time left to invest in such an endeavour. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 13:20:33 [Permalink]
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Big Papa Smurf.....
Your comment on 9/10/07 @ 10:19:25:
I would add a computer person who is adept in matters of photoshopping and image manipulation, as most of the hoaxs will be of the photograpghic type and lastly a good Skeptic, perhaps someone who is a knowledgable of sleight of hand and deception in general, like a magician.
From my OP in the first thread:
I have asked this question of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Marilyn Vos Savant and many other brights, and I would like to address it to anyone on this forum that would care to respond. I am currently writing a monograph on this and other similar events of mass perception of apparently anomalous phenomena -religious visions, conjurors illusions, mass hallucinations or "mass hysteria" and the like - obviously my focus is not on individual narratives of unusual perceived events regardless of apparent credibility! I welcome your comments.
I was initially bitten by a furry little animal for including conjuror's illusions in the subject matter of my writings. I appreciate your grasp of the overreaching gestalt that relates these apparently disparate kinds of phenomena.
Your suggestions concerning the addition of computer scientists, especially as relates to image interpretation, and magicians (Randi would be worth a million dollars a year, but might have some trouble passing the skepticitus test. Also doesn't need the money) are noted and appreciated.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 14:24:45 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse.....
Thank you for your invitation, but I have currently not enough time left to invest in such an endeavour.
I certainly respect your declining the invitation. I hope you are not referring to a health problem? Your use of the word left concerns me. Hopefully, you mean your interest in this dialog has expired?
In either event, I would like to sincerely thank you for your involvement to this point and I hope to engage in conversation with you again, perhaps on a different subject. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 16:50:25 [Permalink]
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Bngbuck, do you have anymore inside info on the "black" projects concerning UAP?
By the way, once one understands that money is nothing more than paper or digits in a ledger one will for a certainty receive much more happiness in life through personal interaction. Counting will always leave one in a deficit; there is always someone who will be able to count higher.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 20:44:10 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
I deeply appreciate your excellent response to my hypothetical. You, together with several others, have constructed a beginning framework of a methodology that actually might accomplish what the Condon report emphatically did not. And I do not mean the validation of extraterrestrial visitation, rather a much more thorough understanding of what appears to be various types of "inexplicable" aerial and space events.
My personal opinion is that there has never been a truly unbiased, impartial, scientific method structured investigation of UAP. Surely, the clutter of "aliens", ET movies, and sensationalistic journalism has created a bias such that no one with any sense wants to touch the subject. Condon didn't, and to a considerable degree he was coerced by the Air Force to undertake the project.
So, to summarize:
Dave pretty much gives up on the Ocala incident, but does nicely structure the application of SM to examining examples of UAP. He defines UAP as a historical science, which, even after reading Massimo Pigliucci, confuses me.
Dude describes a plan to set up telescopes and recording facilities to document UAP as it occurs.
Kil cautions as regards various difficulties that may be encountered.
Dave's ISSUAP hires various behavioral scientists to study how and why people experience "fantasy".
Boron suggests he may come up with a plan for ISSUAP, but has not worked it out yet.
Filthy volunteers (to be paid) for field work, but returns to concerns about ETs, stating that we would essentially be chasing Nessie at Loch Ness.
Jerome sees the whole idea as bad business which he would not enjoy, expresses a certain aversion to money, and still is musing about ETs rather than UAP.
Dave postulates a method of predicting future data by focusing on historical data,
which I fear may severely test his professional staff. More to come here, I trust.
Cune defers to later, citing insufficient time to ponder the problem.
Kil outlines a pretty comprehensive plan for setting up the ISSUAP, involving atmospheric scientist(s), military experts, and psychologists, and probably many more as yet unspecified.
Big Papa Smurf adds computer imaging specialists, and magicians to the roster. I rule out Randi as too expensive and infected with Skepticitus. He has a good heart, though.
By combining the talents of the above contributors, with a few more to come, we will be able to sketch the outline of a scientific way to examine UAP.
Someone ought to write a book about that.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2007 : 20:58:55 [Permalink]
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Jerome, Jerome.....
It's not what money is, it's what money will buy!
Damn near anything, including health, the pursuit of happiness, the beginnings of love, and more glee than I can detail here.
I'll start a thread on this when I have time. I want to finish my work here first.
Regarding the "black" reference, there are many Internet sources. Give me a day or two, I am writing frantically and trying to milk this forum idea cow to the max before Dave drops the red hammer. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2007 : 21:00:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Jerome, Jerome.....
It's not what money is, it's what money will buy!
Damn near anything, including health, the pursuit of happiness, the beginnings of love, and more glee than I can detail here.
I'll start a thread on this when I have time. I want to finish my work here first.
Regarding the "black" reference, there are many Internet sources. Give me a day or two, I am writing frantically and trying to milk this forum idea cow to the max before Dave drops the red hammer.
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Money is not the only thing in life...
but it beats the hell out of whatever's second and third.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2007 : 14:42:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dr. Mabuse.....
Thank you for your invitation, but I have currently not enough time left to invest in such an endeavour.
I certainly respect your declining the invitation. I hope you are not referring to a health problem? Your use of the word left concerns me. Hopefully, you mean your interest in this dialog has expired? |
A language thing... I meant to say that there aren't enough hours in the day: When the day is done, I still have things I prioritise higher that are left unfinished.
Pain and pain-meds leave me with less focus and zeal than I used to have, and while I wait for a hip-replacement surgery things won't get better.
One day though, hopefully sooner rather than later, things will change.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2007 : 18:22:48 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse.....
Thanks for your reply. I understand and am glad that your days are not numbered.
Very recently my daughter (with rheumatoid arthritis) fell and fractured both hips. Successful surgery on one, then after two weeks of rehab, the other hip (cracked) totally gave out. Currently, she is waiting, immobilized and in lots of pain, for her surgeon to fit her in to his busy schedule and replace the other hip.
I certainly can empathize with your situation. The best of wishes and I sincerely hope you can have the neded surgery ASAP. |
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Brights' opinions of select UFO sightings P.S.
