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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2007 : 21:07:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Your thoughts here are based on our concept of technology. |
No, they're not. They're based on concepts of pragmatism, safety, rationality and sanity. But I challenge you to post a thought that is not based upon human experience. |
Our concepts of pragmatism, safety, rationality and sanity are based on our knowledge. To discount the likelihood of aliens based on these concepts is to ignore the fact that our knowledge base is minuscule in comparison to the knowledge that we do not possess.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 01:18:14 [Permalink]
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Dave W......
Originally posted by bngbuck
Per suggestions offered in the previous thread, I have posted essentially the same question in several other skeptics' forums. Although generally well received (I was only kicked out of one)...
Well, this piqued my interest, but Google refuses to cough up which forum that was. I can find five forums, and on none have you been banned.
Not banned, just kicked out of the initial meeting.
In the original thread on 8/09/07 @ 19;29:14, you, Dave, suggested to me to try posting on JREF and The Straight Dope. I started threads on both of them and, after a partial page on The Straight Dope, my thread was closed by a moderator going by the name of Czarcastic.
Naturally, I could not respond on that forum, so I sent Czarcastic an e-mail explaining my naivete' and apologizing for unacceptable behavior. That inexcusable behavior was due to two things. In the OP I referred to addressing the question to Vos Savant, Dawkins, and Harris, as I did here. This, although true, apparently was unacceptable to Czarcastic. He(she) also accused me for not "sticking around" to answer the five or six responses I had received, most of which were trivial. When I posted the OP on JREF, I omitted the references to the luminaries.
However, shortly after I made the initial post on TSD, my daughter, who lives with me and has rheumatoid arthritis, fell and broke both hips. Naturally, I was preoccupied for several days and I did not divert my attention from my daughter in surgery and intensive care to answering replies on The Straight Dope.
She is in recovery now, and I have had some time to resume this dialog on several forums. Czarcastic, who accused me bitterly of "cutting and pasting from one forum to another" (true) showed up on JREF with admonitions to other participants that I was a "true believer". Czarcastic has never had the decency to answer my e-mail.
This Internet message board world of royals, pawns, and pretenders to the throne is truly a strange universe populated by many even stranger individuals. Many of you folks are sensible and reasonable in rendering opinion and stating objection. Some of you are preposterous. I truly don't understand the degree of hostility, antagonism, and just plain misanthropy that comes from a few of the participants in these skeptic groups.
I see, as I progress, that it is unfair to characterize all or even most of each of the forum's populations as misanthropic. Actually, Czarcastic was the only really perverse person I met on the other four forums, and as I have said, the interest level and participation was not nearly as high as on SFN. Neither was the quality of response.
I am neither more than momentarily offended nor resentful of the apparent hostility shown by Czarcastic at TSD and by a few members of your forum. I respect the difficulty of the job that you have in keeping a few intransigent adolescents in line. And I must apologize for my occasional descent to the same mud-throwing that I felt I had encountered here. There has been a learning curve, and I am definitely ascending the vertical coordinate. Is that abscissa or ordinate? It has been so long that I have forgotten.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 02:22:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
Well said, Dude.
I think we can safely eliminate alien visitations from the equation. That leaves us with natural phenomena, which can be rigorously investigated, and the supernatural, from which no empirical results have ever been achieved from any investigation despite the claims. Whether or not it's worth it at all is up to the investigator.
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Why would you eliminate alien visitations? Based on mathematical probabilities there are aliens and they are more technologically advanced than us.
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Based on the Laws of Physics, they've never come here and never will. Too bad, really. I'd like to share some suds, smoke and scuttlebutt with one or a couple of them as well. Can you imagine the sea stories they'd have?
Edit: bngbuck, wishing your daughter the speediest recovery. We have a couple of members that have been/are in pretty much the same fix and can appreciate the situation.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/07/2007 02:43:22 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 08:41:10 [Permalink]
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JDG said:
Why would you eliminate alien visitations? Based on mathematical probabilities there are aliens and they are more technologically advanced than us.
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As has been said already... all those "probabilities" are based (currently) on guesses, and they say nothing about the ability to travel faster than light.
Most people here would tentatively agree that there is a good chance of life existing elswhere in the universe, based on our current observations. But we'll need some compelling evidence that any life not of terrestrial origin has come to visit.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 09:13:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Our concepts of pragmatism, safety, rationality and sanity are based on our knowledge. To discount the likelihood of aliens based on these concepts is to ignore the fact that our knowledge base is minuscule in comparison to the knowledge that we do not possess. |
I challenge you, Jerome, to estimate the likelihood of alien visitations of Earth based upon knowledge that you do not possess. Please note that the "mathematical probabilities" you cited earlier are necessarily based upon nothing more than human knowledge, so it is absolutely clear that you'll accept the premise "human knowledge is useful when considering the possible actions of aliens" when you agree with the conclusions, and you reject the premise when the conclusions do not. Just like you're quick to point out statistical windowing fallacies in arguments which support man-made global climate change, but completely ignore the same fallacy in an argument which purports to "debunk" the same hypothesis. In fact, it appears that your "skepticism" is so massively selective that you are best termed a "contrarian."
And what does it lead to? Arguments which go nowhere. Your post here has demolished what you presented earlier in this thread. You know, after shooting oneself in the foot, one can often get up and limp away from it. Here, Jerome, your argument has shot itself in the head. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 11:00:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
However, shortly after I made the initial post on TSD, my daughter, who lives with me and has rheumatoid arthritis, fell and broke both hips. Naturally, I was preoccupied for several days and I did not divert my attention from my daughter in surgery and intensive care to answering replies on The Straight Dope.
She is in recovery now, and I have had some time to resume this dialog on several forums. |
Ah, best of luck to your daughter - hope she's getting along o.k. I know how painful something like that can be, both physically and mentally. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 12:07:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Why would you eliminate alien visitations? Based on mathematical probabilities there are aliens and they are more technologically advanced than us. |
If I could jump in here-- I recall reading (though I no longer recall the book) about the question of alien life. And one comment was that given the rather short time frame that we've been around, it's quite unlikely that we'd ever encounter another alien race even if they were very advanced. Even if a race that lasted for a million years, we'd never run into them if they died out 10 million years ago. Indeed, even if they broadcast all sorts of radio messages in our direction, unless they were in a star system that was more than 10 million light years away, their messages would have come and gone and we'd have never intercepted them. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 14:15:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Not banned, just kicked out of the initial meeting.
In the original thread on 8/09/07 @ 19;29:14, you, Dave, suggested to me to try posting on JREF and The Straight Dope. I started threads on both of them and, after a partial page on The Straight Dope, my thread was closed by a moderator going by the name of Czarcastic.
Naturally, I could not respond on that forum, so I sent Czarcastic an e-mail explaining my naivete' and apologizing for unacceptable behavior. That inexcusable behavior was due to two things. In the OP I referred to addressing the question to Vos Savant, Dawkins, and Harris, as I did here. This, although true, apparently was unacceptable to Czarcastic. He(she) also accused me for not "sticking around" to answer the five or six responses I had received, most of which were trivial. When I posted the OP on JREF, I omitted the references to the luminaries. |
Well, it looks like it was more the cut-and-paste nature of your post there that twigged people more than the "brights" comment. Perhaps I should have mentioned that "spamming" forums is generally frowned-upon across the Internet. Of course, cutting-and-pasting the number of posts and other trivia from your profile on another forum into your SDMB post wasn't something I could ever have forseen. Seven out of ten for your tenacity, but negative two out of ten for style.
Hope your daughter's doing okay. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 15:18:18 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
Thank you so much for your kind concern for my daughter. She is doing well, being only 35. Lots of pain, but bravely doing the rehab.
You've been so sweet, I think you should change your sobriquet to Dirty
Bill Buck |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 15:25:43 [Permalink]
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Siberia.....
I deeply appreciate your good wishes for my daughter. Fortunately, she is young and is healing rapidly, also making progress in rehab. Thanks again.
Bill Buck |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2007 : 15:45:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Filthy.....
Thank you so much for your kind concern for my daughter. She is doing well, being only 35. Lots of pain, but bravely doing the rehab.
You've been so sweet, I think you should change your sobriquet to Dirty
Bill Buck
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Nah. The bikers would disown me. "Dirty Phil" doesn't quite sound right, but thanks for the suggestion.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 15:49:28 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Unlike many I have met, I have always been much stronger in substance than in style. By the way, what is the bottom limit on that negative scale?
I would like to sincerely thank you for your expression of concern for my daughter. I feel she is doing OK, and although the rehab is tough, she is tackling it with a vengeance.
I think I dislike you a little less after that very nice consideration. Remember, I am only momentarily offended and and I am not resentful. No hubris here. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 15:52:55 [Permalink]
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Filthy.....
Dirty old Phil? |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 18:40:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Based on the Laws of Physics, they've never come here and never will. Too bad, really. I'd like to share some suds, smoke and scuttlebutt with one or a couple of them as well. Can you imagine the sea stories they'd have?
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The Laws of Physics as we currently understand them constrain your thoughts. You know that man; within science, makes up solutions for unexplained phenomenon. This is the part of the scientific process referred to as hypothesis. Two current examples would be string theory, and dark matter.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 18:43:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
JDG said:
Why would you eliminate alien visitations? Based on mathematical probabilities there are aliens and they are more technologically advanced than us.
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As has been said already... all those "probabilities" are based (currently) on guesses, and they say nothing about the ability to travel faster than light.
Most people here would tentatively agree that there is a good chance of life existing elswhere in the universe, based on our current observations. But we'll need some compelling evidence that any life not of terrestrial origin has come to visit.
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Does this mean that you are guessing that "we" hold the correct and complete knowledge that precludes extraterrestrial life that possesses technology which we do not that can preform this feat?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Brights' opinions of select UFO sightings P.S.
