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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2007 : 16:36:01
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We have a provincial election coming up on October 10, and trouble is a brewin'.
As some of you may already know, there have, for the last few decades, been 3 major parties at both the federal and provincial level. The Liberals (must scare the crap out of a few American rednecks that not only do we have liberals, we even name a party liberal!  ), Conservatives, and the New Democratic Party. The NDP is fairly left-wing, and while they have held power in a few provinces on occasion they have never been a serious threat federally.
Anyhoooooo... Our current Provincial Premiere here is Dalton McGuinty, a Liberal, and since day one when they were elected a few years back they got off on the wrong foot, seeming as if they were trying to set a record for broken campaign promises. They were quickly nick-named 'fiberals'. Their record overall has been fairly good however, and our economy is doing well. For the most part people are content, but there are still those nagging memories...
Along comes our new Conservative leader, John Tory (a delightfully 'punny' name considering that Tory is the party's nick-name, sort of like G.O.P., and comes from the days when that was the official party name). Not content with the rather restrained variety of conservatism traditionally practiced in Canada, he has decided to take the party on a similar path to the Republicans, sucking up to the religious right. His latest campaign pronouncement is that if he is elected he will consider extending full public funding to 'faith-based' schools. Currently only Roman Catholic schools receive any tax dollars, and that is because it was guaranteed over 100 years ago, long before our constitution was drawn up. Unfortunately our new constitution didn't stop this practice, so after a few groups complained about it being unfair the World Court came to a decision that our Government's policy is discriminatory for funding only one religious system. They are correct of course, but many think that the best solution would be to end funding to Catholic schools.
Not Mr. Tory. He does want to ensure that the public school curriculum is adhered to in these schools, but he also stated yesterday that it would be perfectly alright if those same schools taught 'alternatives' to evolutionary theory in addition the scientific fact. Tellingly, his statement said something along the lines of "...it is called the 'theory' of evolution, and some Christian groups have other ideas'. (I was driving when the exact statement was made so I couldn't whip out my cell phone and record the exact words, but trust me, that's pretty close) So in one sentence he shows two things - his stress on the word 'theory' shows he doesn't know what it means, and his mentioning of Christians only implies that he doesn't care what our native population believes, or our large Hindu and Muslim populations, pagans, or whatever.
This could get very nasty. The Canadian Jewish Congress is already running ads complaining that religious schools are 'shut out' of tax dollars, which is bullshit, they chose to be different. The Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario is running ads asking for support for public education, and I'm sure that more groups will soon wade into the fight.
I have sent a letter of support to our Provincial Education Minister, who is actually in the same electoral district as John Tory. I'm hoping she whips his ass at the ballot box!!!
Keep y'all posted.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2007 : 17:17:59 [Permalink]
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Good luck, Rat! That's a battle you need to win! Sorry for the political slop-over across the border from our Neo-Cons. You hosers really need to learn to ignore what we do down here, eh? Like we ignore Canadian Football.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/06/2007 17:20:49 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2007 : 18:49:26 [Permalink]
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Hopefully, Kathleen Wynne will win on October 10th.
"We are unique. People in Ontario take publicly funded education very seriously and the anxiety that (Tory) has stirred up is very genuine," said Wynne, who is going head-to-head with Tory for her Toronto seat.
"Can we afford to take money from the public purse and put it into private religious schools at this juncture? The answer is no. Is that a direction we want to go? The answer is no."
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2007 : 19:28:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Good luck, Rat! That's a battle you need to win! Sorry for the political slop-over across the border from our Neo-Cons. You hosers really need to learn to ignore what we do down here, eh? Like we ignore Canadian Football.
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There was a time when I cared about the CFL.
The Baltimore Stallions were a Canadian football team based in Baltimore, Maryland, which played the 1994 and 1995 seasons. They were the most successful American team in the Canadian Football League having two winning seasons, a division title and became the first and only American team to win the Grey Cup in 1995.
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From Wiki
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
| Edited by - JEROME DA GNOME on 09/06/2007 19:33:54 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2007 : 19:30:58 [Permalink]
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These are the problems caused by a publicly funded school system.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 03:22:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
These are the problems caused by a publicly funded school system.
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No, these are the problems caused by people who want to tamper with publicly funded school systems toward their own ends or the ends of their sponsers, which is the same slimy thing.
Here in the states, we get it all the time from various religious groups and other would-be tyrants with an agenda other than the honest education of our children.
Wishing all luck, Rat!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 04:59:29 [Permalink]
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I sent Kathleen Wynne a message the other night after hearing her rebuttal to John Tory's comments. She had said something along the lines that only truth should be taught in science classes. I realised immediately that the word 'truth' could cause undue trouble:
Dear Ms Wynne,
This afternoon I heard your reply to John Tory's announcement that teaching creationism would be acceptable in faith-based schools. As a staunch evolutionist I applaud your quick decision to defend science and evolutionary theory, but I would caution you against using the word 'truth' as a way of describing what is being taught. Science is a way of determining how the universe works and is constantly being modified as new information becomes available. Evolutionary theory has withstood every challenge thrown at it, and is one of the most well-buttressed and unassailable theories in all of science. It works, and it may be true, but science never claims to be 'truth', only a mechanism for investigating our world. Those who oppose science and its findings could make the 'truth' aspect an issue in itself, deflecting us from the issue of defending rationality and a sound scientific education.
Again, I thank you for standing up for public education, and I wish you all the best in retaining your seat in the Ontario Legislature! |
Here is her reply, received this morning:
Dear Mr. Bailey,
Thank you for your supportive e-mail. I take your point about the use of the
word truth.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Wynne
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Gotta cover every little detail...  |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 05:59:54 [Permalink]
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Smart advice, Rat! And a smart legislator to take that advice, as she did.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 09:20:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
These are the problems caused by a publicly funded school system. |
Without a publicly funded school system, the radical evangelicals would find other ways to try to use public funds for their own missionary goals. Not only do they feel entitled to do so, but they fear God's wrath if they don't. Therefore, public schooling isn't the problem. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 19:04:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
These are the problems caused by a publicly funded school system.
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No, these are the problems caused by people who want to tamper with publicly funded school systems toward their own ends or the ends of their sponsers, which is the same slimy thing.
Here in the states, we get it all the time from various religious groups and other would-be tyrants with an agenda other than the honest education of our children.
Wishing all luck, Rat!
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The publicly funded school system is already funding religion.
If there was not public funding than everyone would get to choose individually. There would be NO argument.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 19:09:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Without a publicly funded school system, the radical evangelicals would find other ways to try to use public funds for their own missionary goals. |
Is just made up?
They are going to do it anyways is one of the weakest arguments one can make.
Not only do they feel entitled to do so, but they fear God's wrath if they don't. Therefore, public schooling isn't the problem.
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You did not think this one out, did you?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 21:34:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Is just made up? |
Of course not. Open your eyes and look around at all the other things they're trying to do.| They are going to do it anyways is one of the weakest arguments one can make. |
It's a perfect counter-argument to your nonsense about how the public schools are the problem. This rebuttal of yours would only make sense if you think that the end goal of the radical evangelists is to get creationism taught in public schools. That's just a stepping stone. A means to an end.| You did not think this one out, did you? |
It appears that you're the short-sighted one here, Jerome. If the world were lacking in radical religious nut-cases, these battles over public schools, courthouses, Congress, parks, funerals, Presidential initiatives and so on would not be happening. Religious moderates don't pull this sort of crap, because they're not driven to do so by missionary zeal. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 22:02:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Is just made up? |
Of course not. Open your eyes and look around at all the other things they're trying to do.| They are going to do it anyways is one of the weakest arguments one can make. |
It's a perfect counter-argument to your nonsense about how the public schools are the problem. This rebuttal of yours would only make sense if you think that the end goal of the radical evangelists is to get creationism taught in public schools. That's just a stepping stone. A means to an end.| You did not think this one out, did you? |
It appears that you're the short-sighted one here, Jerome. If the world were lacking in radical religious nut-cases, these battles over public schools, courthouses, Congress, parks, funerals, Presidential initiatives and so on would not be happening. Religious moderates don't pull this sort of crap, because they're not driven to do so by missionary zeal.
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My point is:
It matters not what group is looking to garner power (other peoples funds) if the government is not powerful. The larger amount of labor taken from the common man begets a larger pool of power for various interests to fight over at the detriment of the common man.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 22:24:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My point is:
It matters not what group is looking to garner power (other peoples funds) if the government is not powerful. The larger amount of labor taken from the common man begets a larger pool of power for various interests to fight over at the detriment of the common man. |
And my point is that the moderates don't want to hold power for themselves, but spread it equitably. The "various interests" most likely to cause fights for power are the radicals. The laissez-faire idealism of libertarianism depends upon almost everyone being a moderate, and simply won't function as intended when a largish percentage of the population are power-hungry. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 22:35:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My point is:
It matters not what group is looking to garner power (other peoples funds) if the government is not powerful. The larger amount of labor taken from the common man begets a larger pool of power for various interests to fight over at the detriment of the common man. |
And my point is that the moderates don't want to hold power for themselves, but spread it equitably. The "various interests" most likely to cause fights for power are the radicals. The laissez-faire idealism of libertarianism depends upon almost everyone being a moderate, and simply won't function as intended when a largish percentage of the population are power-hungry.
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My contention will always be that most people are moderate.
You know that I live, work, and cavort in the Washington D.C. area. This is the most powerful city in the world; and from my experience (yes, I know, it is anecdotal) the vast majority of people are moderate and are concerned with little more than their daily needs. I have met several people than were concerned with power; to a man they use government to achieve this power with zero conscious realization that this power comes from the labor of millions of people around the country.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 22:52:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My contention will always be that most people are moderate. |
Well, I said "largISH percentage." Radicalism doesn't require a majority to ruin the libertarian utopia. Especially not when another largish percentage of people are neither radical nor moderate (I believe you've referred to them as "sheep" in the past).
Nor, of course, are people consistent in their moderatism (new word?). People have only so-much time, resources and passion to dole out, so they're forced to prioritize their agendas. Nobody can be a radical about all issues, simply because there are too many issues and not enough hours in a day. And to satisfy every voter, there would have to be thousands of candidates for every office, each with a different set of opinions. Such situations force people to compromise on their ideals, which leads to things like the "anybody but Bush" movement. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ontario may be in trouble...
