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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2007 : 02:14:48
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A new study covered in LiveScience compared three particular wrist bones in modern humans, Neanderthals, chimps, and the Flores "hobbit." The result is a conclusion that the Hobbit is a much more primitive creature, with a wrist closely resembling the chimpanzee. There are no known wrist bones from Homo erectus, so no comparison could be made to those.Evidence in Hand That 'Hobbit' Was Not a Modern Human
By Jeanna Bryner, LiveScience Staff Writer
A smoking gun that could snuff out a hot debate over skeletal remains dubbed "the hobbit" is in hand, literally, according to a group of scientists.
Three wrist bones provide key evidence supporting the argument that fossil remains of an ancient, undersized individual represent a new hominin species that walked the Earth with modern humans, say the study scientists.
The wrist bones resemble those in apes more than those in humans, the researchers write in the Sept. 21 issue of the journal Science. |
A visual comparison of the hobbit's wrist bones scaled to the same size as those of a chimpanzee and a modern human. The colors indicate where other bones touch those surfaces. Credit: Science
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2007 : 03:54:09 [Permalink]
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Obviously, like Neandertal, they were fully human and suffered from arthuritis & ricketyits. Also microcephalia & shortroundism.
Thanks 'mooner! I'll be watching the usual suspects for their commentary. Hopefully it'll be something original & amusing rather than the same, dull, old tripe.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/21/2007 04:10:13 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 04:15:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Obviously, like Neandertal, they were fully human and suffered from arthuritis & ricketyits. Also microcephalia & shortroundism.
Thanks 'mooner! I'll be watching the usual suspects for their commentary. Hopefully it'll be something original & amusing rather than the same, dull, old tripe.
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Good! Be sure to report your findings! The Creationists' quick, knee-jerk idiocy always provides an enjoyable humorous aside each time science laboriously learns something new.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2007 : 20:14:14 [Permalink]
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Bah! Probably caused by jerking off too much.
Makes you blind too.  |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2007 : 11:59:11 [Permalink]
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Well, I missed the pool but here's AiG's carefully reasoned response; pretty much as predicted, really:
At this point, it seems the debate will go on in evolutionary circles; without more specimens, it is impossible to determine if this hobbit was abnormal or not, and scientists can only speculate on the degree to which disease could have altered the hobbit skeletal structure. All this underscores the difficulty of unearthing bones and trying to recreate the past without actual eyewitness accounts of what went on. For this reason, presuppositions are at the heart of how anyone reconstructs the past and interprets artifacts in the present. Starting with the presuppositions of uniformitarianism and Darwinism, some scientists hypothesize numerous species, even where only one is actually necessary; these scientists promote artists' reconstructions that decorate sparse bones according to leading evolutionary theory (e.g., making Lucy look more human than she was and making Neandertal man look more ape than he was).
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It's the second article, but do read the first. That one's a neat apologetic concerning the velociraptor feathers, that 'mooner put up in an earlier thread.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2007 : 12:07:15 [Permalink]
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I heard about this a few days ago on NPR.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14546763
The report is work listening to just to hear the excitement in Matthew Tocheri's voice.
Researcher Matthew Tocheri, who studies wrist bones at the Smithsonian Institution, was shocked when he saw the wrist bones of the Hobbit.
"I opened up the container and I pulled out the bones and, wow, I couldn't believe it. I was like — is somebody putting me on? These are completely primitive," says Tocheri. |
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/30/2007 12:07:37 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2007 : 19:38:50 [Permalink]
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Gotta love how science works. It looks as though this wrist-bone study has pretty much demolished the "modern microcephaly" hypothesis for the Flores remains.
The hobbit was no human "pin-head." Now we know that modern humans co-existed with Neaderthals and hobbits, and that the most primitive of the two lasted almost until modern times! I suspect that we may find there were other near-humans around after Homo sap appeared on the scene.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/01/2007 19:39:38 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 10:09:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The result is a conclusion that the Hobbit is a much more primitive creature, with a wrist closely resembling the chimpanzee. |
Primitive? You mean better suited for other purposes than the human wrist, right? For tree climbing, a monkey wrist is much better suited (more advanced?) than the human wrist. We can be so anthropocentric - things that are more like us are more advanced. Things that are less like us are primitive. Is a Polar Bear more advanced or more primitive than a Grizly Bear? I suppose it would help to have a standard definition of what characterizes something as primitive. |
-Chaloobi
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 10:38:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The result is a conclusion that the Hobbit is a much more primitive creature, with a wrist closely resembling the chimpanzee. |
Primitive? You mean better suited for other purposes than the human wrist, right? For tree climbing, a monkey wrist is much better suited (more advanced?) than the human wrist. We can be so anthropocentric - things that are more like us are more advanced. Things that are less like us are primitive. Is a Polar Bear more advanced or more primitive than a Grizly Bear? I suppose it would help to have a standard definition of what characterizes something as primitive.
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It's a term the paleontologists use. Not in a value sense, but in comparing earlier hominids and chimps to humans. I agree, what's advanced for a monkey are hands that work like good hooks.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 10:59:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The result is a conclusion that the Hobbit is a much more primitive creature, with a wrist closely resembling the chimpanzee. |
Primitive? You mean better suited for other purposes than the human wrist, right? For tree climbing, a monkey wrist is much better suited (more advanced?) than the human wrist. We can be so anthropocentric - things that are more like us are more advanced. Things that are less like us are primitive. Is a Polar Bear more advanced or more primitive than a Grizly Bear? I suppose it would help to have a standard definition of what characterizes something as primitive.
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It's a term the paleontologists use. Not in a value sense, but in comparing earlier hominids and chimps to humans. I agree, what's advanced for a monkey are hands that work like good hooks.
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So they are thinking in terms of when the characteristics appeared / disappeared. Earlier is more primitive than later.... |
-Chaloobi
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 11:08:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The result is a conclusion that the Hobbit is a much more primitive creature, with a wrist closely resembling the chimpanzee. |
Primitive? You mean better suited for other purposes than the human wrist, right? For tree climbing, a monkey wrist is much better suited (more advanced?) than the human wrist. We can be so anthropocentric - things that are more like us are more advanced. Things that are less like us are primitive. Is a Polar Bear more advanced or more primitive than a Grizly Bear? I suppose it would help to have a standard definition of what characterizes something as primitive.
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It's a term the paleontologists use. Not in a value sense, but in comparing earlier hominids and chimps to humans. I agree, what's advanced for a monkey are hands that work like good hooks.
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So they are thinking in terms of when the characteristics appeared / disappeared. Earlier is more primitive than later....
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That's what I suppose. But it might be a sort of "fossilized" term from the early physical anthropology days, when monkeys, apes, and man were ranked by achievement. Even if so, they don't mean "primitive" in that sense these days.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2007 : 12:27:09 [Permalink]
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From an old TalkOrigins feedbackFrom a reply by John Wilkins
"Primitive", in evolutionary biology, means something different from what it means in ordinary conversation. For a long time, western thinking has treated anything different to the western way of thinking as "primitive", meaning less developed than western thinking. This isn't what it means in biology.
In evolution, a trait is primitive if it is something that the ancestor of modified descendent had. Hence, having four limbs is primitive for snakes, who now have none. Having no legs is "derived" for snakes. |
TalkOrigins Archive
Evolving Thoughts, Jon Wilkins blog |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 12:41:03 [Permalink]
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"Primitive" is mere terminology and only means that something was around before something else that evolved from it -- I can't believe I wrote that....
What the hobbit wrist signifies is that it was, not necessarly transitional, but an earlier form of our own that worked just fine.
Heh, the usual suspects are remarkably quiet on this one, although I haven't checked them today. Could it be that they are having difficulty with their apologetics? AiG's little denial was pathetic.
I'm now waiting for someone to shout fraud.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 12:47:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
From an old TalkOrigins feedbackFrom a reply by John Wilkins
"Primitive", in evolutionary biology, means something different from what it means in ordinary conversation. For a long time, western thinking has treated anything different to the western way of thinking as "primitive", meaning less developed than western thinking. This isn't what it means in biology.
In evolution, a trait is primitive if it is something that the ancestor of modified descendent had. Hence, having four limbs is primitive for snakes, who now have none. Having no legs is "derived" for snakes. |
TalkOrigins Archive
Evolving Thoughts, Jon Wilkins blog
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Thanks for that!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 11/21/2007 : 07:38:15 [Permalink]
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From John Hawks : Paleoanthropologist Teuku Jacob dies at 76| Indonesia's "king of paleoanthropology," Teuku Jacob ruled over a vital collection of hominid fossils....On 17 October, at the age of 76, the professor emeritus and former rector of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta died of liver problems. |
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"Hobbit" wrist bones show it was non-human
