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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2007 : 08:05:38
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The Great Pyramids of Egypt and the stone monolithic heads of Easter Island are curious to look at, even awe inspiring, but they can, IMO, be dismissed as more or less useless cultural artifacts. That is, they served no practical purpose. But their construction consumed a heck of a lot of resources from their respective civilization.
Lately I've been thinking about the US highway system and the automobilies it was built for. To me the highways are analagous to the pyramids and autos to the heads of easter island. But only in the sense they are cultural artifacts with limited practical purpose. If transportation between A and B is what Americans need, then automobiles and the highway system is just about the most inefficient way to do it. Arguably the highways are good for freight transport within metro areas, but rail is still much more efficient between cities and states.
And when you consider the engineering expertise that goes into making the perfect car for consumers with all the amenities, safety features, luxuries and blah blah blah, it's insane. There's no reason for it but we sink enormous resources into the auto industry and the necessary highways anyway.
Some future civilization is going to look back at us and scratch their heads about our highways and autos. They'll wonder why we built them, study the care and intensity with which we designed our cars, and chuckle at the silliness of it all.
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-Chaloobi
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 08:29:57 [Permalink]
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I really have to disagree here. Have you ever relied upon mass transit for any length of time? It sucks. It's congested, stifling, unreliable, and unsanitary. "Efficiency" is like the 87th most important factor I consider when traveling. Give me rolling highways and fresh breezes over efficiency any day. Guess that makes me "insane."
Unless you develop teleporter technology like from Star Trek, I don't see anything ever replacing cars and roads. At least in my car I don't need to worry about sitting beside a homeless man who just soiled himself.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/25/2007 08:35:17 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 09:22:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
If transportation between A and B is what Americans need, then automobiles and the highway system is just about the most inefficient way to do it. |
To engineer and build an individual vehicle for each person, the myriad of roads, bridges, and parking lots to allow them to get anywhere from anywhere, and the fuel and maintenance infrastructure to support the vehicles is extraordinarlily inefficient in cost and resource consumption compared to light rail.
Safety features are insane? And I find plenty of reasons for a cd player, air condition, and the like. It's not like we're putting blenders in our cars, although that would be really cool.
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I listed the features as an indicator of the effort and expense that goes into make the ideal automobile. They are insane because the automobile that gives them purpose is insane. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 09/25/2007 09:28:52 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 09:24:08 [Permalink]
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However, for cultural artifacts that consume a great deal of resources yet serve no practical purpose, nothing beats cathedrals.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 09:28:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I really have to disagree here. Have you ever relied upon mass transit for any length of time? It sucks. It's congested, stifling, unreliable, and unsanitary. "Efficiency" is like the 87th most important factor I consider when traveling. Give me rolling highways and fresh breezes over efficiency any day. Guess that makes me "insane." |
But efficiency is what I'm talking about. And mass transit doesn't have to be bad the way you describe. If it was supported and engineered for comfort the way automobiles are, I'm certain it could be a very pleasant experience. I for one hate the morning commute and a reasonably comfortable train ride would be much better.
| Unless you develop teleporter technology like from Star Trek, I don't see anything ever replacing cars and roads. At least in my car I don't need to worry about sitting beside a homeless man who just soiled himself. |
Never say never. The biggest legitmate use for roads is freight transport in and around cities. I've read about companies looking into using dirigibles to deliver the same cargo anywhere in a city and not requiring the road infrastructure. If you have a reasonable light rail transit system and deliver freight by air, you may not need roads. I don't know enough about it to know if it's feasible, but it's an interesting paradigm change. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 09:31:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
However, for cultural artifacts that consume a great deal of resources yet serve no practical purpose, nothing beats cathedrals.
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I'm with you on that one, at least in their time. Today towering buildings are a dime a dozen. Building the Sears Tower was nifty but it doesn't compare to the interstate highway system, the automobile, and all the supporting infrastructure. |
-Chaloobi
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 10:19:55 [Permalink]
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The good thiing about the automobile is that it takes us rapidly, more or less in comfort and privacy, from nearly any point "A" to nearly any point "B." And a highway system seems a pretty efficient way to link those points, being mostly vast stretches of low-tech flat surface.
Now the bad things are twofold, in my opinion: 1) the internal combustion engine, and 2) the guidance system consisting of an average, more or less, human being. The first problem endangers the entire earth, while the second endangers everyone on those highways.
A technical breakthrough to provide a better battery (or a battery analogue) will fix the first problem. The second can be corrected by advanced navigation systems that take control from us frail humans.
I have spent several years without driving a car now, only my 20-mph electric scooter. There is much that I simply can not do anymore, because of this. Mass transit is simply too nasty and time-consuming to be practical for most people in many localities. We need help from engineers!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 19:38:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ricky
What is a more efficient way? |
Tube.
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'tis gone.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 19:50:08 [Permalink]
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Seems like Fox went through YouTube and cleaned house sometime in the intervening 10 hours. Lots of rightful DMCA claims, no doubt. Or one big one.
My link just went to the Futurama intro, in which we can see the tubes criss-crossing the city.
Here is a still of Fry's first ride in one of them.
(And here is one of Fry at the Head Museum, visiting Spock. Fry is all class.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 21:35:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
And mass transit doesn't have to be bad the way you describe. If it was supported and engineered for comfort the way automobiles are, I'm certain it could be a very pleasant experience. I for one hate the morning commute and a reasonably comfortable train ride would be much better. |
Trains are only comfortable if not everyone uses them. If they become as popular as you desire, they would quickly become overcrowded nightmares. Ride a subway car in New York or Tokyo sometime. Trains are currently a pleasant experience because everyone else is on the highway. Put all those people into a train station and you're right back to having a hellish commute.
The fact of the matter is there just isn't any really good way to move massive amounts of people. I think cars are a decent solution.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 04:42:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by chaloobi
And mass transit doesn't have to be bad the way you describe. If it was supported and engineered for comfort the way automobiles are, I'm certain it could be a very pleasant experience. I for one hate the morning commute and a reasonably comfortable train ride would be much better. |
Trains are only comfortable if not everyone uses them. If they become as popular as you desire, they would quickly become overcrowded nightmares. Ride a subway car in New York or Tokyo sometime. Trains are currently a pleasant experience because everyone else is on the highway. Put all those people into a train station and you're right back to having a hellish commute.
The fact of the matter is there just isn't any really good way to move massive amounts of people. I think cars are a decent solution.
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I'm more sympathetic to chaloobi's point. While current mass transit is not so good, I have no idea what it would be like if "it was supported and engineered for comfort the way automobiles are". If all the money and effort put into the auto industry and the highway system were instead channeled toward mass transit, I'm pretty sure it would be much, much better than what we have today. Still, I'm not sure how easy it would be to go get that gallon of milk and a loaf of bread at 10:00 at night. (I might actually have to plan better  ) |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 04:47:12 [Permalink]
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| I'm sure that if I was working in down town Charlotte I would be taking the bus. Driving is a crap shoot. A normal 15-20 minute drive could take 60. The biggest problem is the cost of parking a car, $7-$10 a day. And on average you would still walk farther from your car than you would from the bus station. But since I do not work down town I prefer my car. I did change my car this year from one that got 20 mpg to one that is getting 34 mpg. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 05:37:19 [Permalink]
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Part of our troubles in the US is that many of our cities are laid out for automobiles. So getting a loaf of bread and gallon of milk requires a car. Urban sprawl is a creature of the automobile and has resulted in dependance on it. In the face of that fact, it's still ludicrous that we've designed our cities and transportation systems this way. It's just another brick in the pyramid.
Regarding the pyramids, I agree they're totally and fundamentally useless, while highways have some practical purpose. But I do wonder if the pyramids served some kind of social or political function - national prestige and pride, demonstration of government power, etc - Maybe they helped stabilize the socio-political apparatus. Impossible to say for sure today, of course. They just appear useless to us. |
-Chaloobi
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Our Very Own Pyramid and Easter Island Heads
