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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2007 : 02:58:39
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James Randi has been aggressively going after wild and fantastic claims by both Stereophile Magazine and the manufacturer about the supposed superior quality of $7,250 Pear cables.
Michael Fremer, senior contributing editor of Stereophile (who has also promoted a device for "demagetizng" LP vinyl records) wrote the rave review for the Pear cables. Unlike most woo-woos, Fremer seems thus far willing to pursue the James Randi $1 Million Challenge over the cables. Meanwhile, Pear Cable's CEO Adam Blake calls the Randi Challenge "a hoax."
Randi initially stated that the Challenge was an appropriate venue for testing the Pear cables versus an ordinary set of Monster cables, because anyone claiming the ability to hear a difference is claiming a paranormal ability.
Fremer objected, saying he's not a psychic, simply has trained ears, and that many people could tell the difference. Randi has now backed own on calling this a matter of paranormal powers, but still wants to run the tests.
Both Randi and Fremer acknowledge that sensitive instrumentation can detect differences in cables. Randi says it would take a dog's ears, not a human's, to tell which one was better. Fremer claims that's not true. Randi wants to set up double-blind protocols to test this question, without test instrumentation. Proposed protocols are being drawn up at this moment.
Over at JREF I've read a bit of the commentary. There are many who are doubtful that this matter is a good one for the Challenge. Three main arguments: 1) This is a off-message case for Randi, being more typical fare for Consumer Reports. 2) By insisting upon testing by ear alone, without instruments, Randi is insuring that the test will be more subjective and possibly less scientific. 3) Some posters worry that Randi might even lose the million, due to very perceptive ears of panelists.
I am undecided, though I have some concerns along the lines of the critical posts at JREF. On the whole, I'd say I was somewhat dubious about this choice by Randi.
It seems to be the consensus at JREF (and I agree) that regardless of whether Pear Cables is the right choice the Randi Challenge, Randi can't back down now, since the glove has already been thrown down.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/13/2007 03:10:53
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2007 : 03:35:39 [Permalink]
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I dunno either, but I do know that there's a sucker born every nanosecond. 7,250 sheckles is one hell of lot of sheckles to put down on something that will/might make you hear the black-board screechings, rap gibbers and overloaded bass of current pop music a little clearer.
You'd think they'd want to go in just the opposit direction.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 05:27:11 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, I read about this and was disappointed that Randi decided to get involved. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 09:48:58 [Permalink]
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I have mixed feelings about this. Firstly, a claim to a fact that isn't so should be challenged. And if it's true that even an audiophile would not be able to tell the difference in sound, as Randi contends, the claim does fall into the realm of the paranormal. (That is if you consider hearing certain frequencies that a dog can hear but are generally outside of a human's range of hearing a paranormal. It is certainly and extraordinary claim. And while they may not be making that exact claim, that is what it would take for their cables to actually sound better than monster cables.)
After the not so strangely familiar style of response to Randi's challenge by the CEO of Pear Cables, that the Randi challenge is a hoax, including a series of ad hom attacks, I strongly suspect that the million is safe.
While this might have been better left to Consumers Reports, the test would have been very low profile and basically they would have not rated the cables as a “best buy” since the sound quality is probably very good for the Pear Cables.
Failing Randi's test where both sides must agree on the protocols will have much more impact.
A con is a con.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 10:11:41 [Permalink]
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All that is certainly true, except that Randi has withdrawn the true-but-unnecessary "paranormal" term. (The claim can be considered instead along the lines of the testing of a "free energy" device.) Yes, certainly a con is afoot with the marketing of these outrageously overpriced cables. Pear Cables is mouthing classic crackpot nonsense. Stereophile Magazine seems to be corrupted by this advertiser, and is doing a disservice to its credulous readers.
Randi's dealing with Stereophile, not Pear, in fact, with a guy who apparently has good training in the audio field, despite the nonsense he writes. This might turn out to be as bad for Randi, who is operating somewhat outside his own field, as it was for some of the scientists who were gulled by Geller's specialized magician's tricks. Randi may even turn out to have been wrong about perceived sound quality -- it's not his field. He may lose the million. I worry about that, but it's certainly too late to pull out.
Yes, the claims deserve to be reputed. I hope they are, and think they most likely will be.
The upside of losing that million (assuming Randi can put the same amount together once again) would be that no woos will be convincing thereafter when claiming the Challenge is a hoax!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/13/2007 12:54:12 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 10:19:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The upside of losing that million (assuming Randi can put the same amount together once again) would be that no woos will be convincing thereafter when claiming the Challenge is a hoax! |
Good point. I'm tempted to say it's worth it then.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 12:32:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I have mixed feelings about this. Firstly, a claim to a fact that isn't so should be challenged. |
I agree, whole heartedly, but consumer report isn't James Randi's deal.
| And if it's true that even an audiophile would not be able to tell the difference in sound, as Randi contends, the claim does fall into the realm of the paranormal. (That is if you consider hearing certain frequencies that a dog can hear but are generally outside of a human's range of hearing a paranormal. It is certainly and extraordinary claim. And while they may not be making that exact claim, that is what it would take for their cables to actually sound better than monster cables.) |
How much physiology does Randi know? I think he is overconfident in claiming that he knows that someone wouldn't know the difference.
The human ear is a pretty damn fine instrument, and I wonder what electronic instrument that has been used to determine that human ear could not possible tell the difference. There are a lot of parameters that makes an audiophile system the piece of art that it is.
I have first hand experience of situations when something I thought impossible to hear was heard by someone with extraordinary (but without being paranormal) hearing.
I hang out at a Swedish audiophile forum semi regularly, and while there certainly are extraordinary claims about the performance of this or that item, most of it relying on placebo effects, some of the stuff actually do work, and can be explained by physics.
If Michael Fremer claims to be able to pick out these cables in a double blind test, then I would say that we shouldn't rule out that he actually can. Mumbo-jumbo advertising not withstanding.
Like I said, there are many parameters involved in the characteristics of a signal cable. Much more than mere resistance/impedance and frequency response.
After the not so strangely familiar style of response to Randi's challenge by the CEO of Pear Cables, that the Randi challenge is a hoax, including a series of ad hom attacks, I strongly suspect that the million is safe.
While this might have been better left to Consumers Reports, the test would have been very low profile and basically they would have not rated the cables as a “best buy” since the sound quality is probably very good for the Pear Cables.
Failing Randi's test where both sides must agree on the protocols will have much more impact.
A con is a con. |
Yes, a con is a con, but do they claim paranormal activity? If the CEO of Pear Cables claims the cable is much better than anything else, so what? Maybe it is... And Monster Cable is not considered top of the line either for that matter.
Like Halfmooner summed up JREF forum points, 1) It's a consumer issue, not really a paranormal claim, is it? 2) We know that human ears differ in quality, from the stone deaf to normal to way above normal. A trained ear can pick up differences that an instrument wouldn't. What instrument? Well... you tell me. 3) Randi loosing is really a possibility to worry about. This gang isn't some deluded loonie who convinced himself that he can read minds. There are engineers working behind to make this product happen. While taking up on Randi's challenge might be a publicity stunt, they are going to sit in when the test protocols are being drawn up, which means they would only accept a setup they think they can beat. |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 12:38:22 [Permalink]
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THis is somewhat interesting, the idea that the JREF could find itself taking part in consumer protection. Might even be a positive move in a way. Certainly, many of the most blatant misrepresentations are made in advertising. Might be a way of heightening profile and garnering public approval for the JREF. Perhaps present a more immediately recognizable as practical application of the skeptical principles that fuel our challenges to the crackpots into a more general, practical form.
Certainly, there has been at least one skeptic who likened checking extraordinary claims with the same level of caution as kicking the tires on a used car.
Bringing the two kinds of claims into the same fold could promote skeptical thought quite well in the overview.
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 13:59:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
THis is somewhat interesting, the idea that the JREF could find itself taking part in consumer protection. |
They already do, since psychics are offering a service to consumers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 18:33:15 [Permalink]
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This is interesting.
I'm a bit of HiFi nut myself, and am always amused by the claims of some self professed audiophiles.
Bigger/better cables can and do make a difference. However, the law of diminishing returns, in tandem with the laws of physics would tend to put the point at which it no longer makes a perceptible audible difference well below the extravagance of $7000 cables.
I used to hang out over at the AudioHolics forums, but with a limited amount of time for this sort of thing these days, I find SFN generally more entertaining and educational. Don't you all feel so special?
I once posted a topic there about vague, and to me, annoying, terminology used by HiFi sales staff nad their devotees, and got some rather heated responses. I'll see if I can dig it up. Here 'tis. In hindsight, I can understand why I upset a few people, it was a bit of a rant, and some of my opposition certainly made some valid points.
I'd like to see Randi take this to a double blind test, even if I think there are other groups which might have more impact.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 18:53:39 [Permalink]
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Jeeze, some of those folks had really delicate feelings on that forum, John. Some weren't very bright, some got kinda harsh, even punchy. Few were warm or mellow.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 12:13:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The upside of losing that million (assuming Randi can put the same amount together once again) would be that no woos will be convincing thereafter when claiming the Challenge is a hoax! |
Good point. I'm tempted to say it's worth it then.
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Except that it will give Creationists and their ilk the opportunity to spin it to mean that Randi is a fake and doesn't know what he's talking about. They'll be all over it. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2007 : 12:56:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by emsby
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The upside of losing that million (assuming Randi can put the same amount together once again) would be that no woos will be convincing thereafter when claiming the Challenge is a hoax! |
Good point. I'm tempted to say it's worth it then.
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Except that it will give Creationists and their ilk the opportunity to spin it to mean that Randi is a fake and doesn't know what he's talking about. They'll be all over it.
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Let 'em be. To my knowledge, Randi has never been caught short yet and a brief, albeit expensive, stumble would only inspire over-confidence and bait his logical trap.
But I think Randi will come out of this just fine, with his million intact and his reputation inhanced.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 13:02:34 [Permalink]
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Let 'em be. To my knowledge, Randi has never been caught short yet and a brief, albeit expensive, stumble would only inspire over-confidence and bait his logical trap.
But I think Randi will come out of this just fine, with his million intact and his reputation inhanced.
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You're probably right. I just know how they love to take the truth, twist it, put it in a blender, add coconut, freeze it, thaw it, drink it, poop it out and serve it up again. |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
| Edited by - emsby on 10/15/2007 13:03:17 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 17:02:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Jeeze, some of those folks had really delicate feelings on that forum, John. Some weren't very bright, some got kinda harsh, even punchy. Few were warm or mellow.
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HalfMooner, don't forget that some of these are the very people who have actually bought a pair of cables in the $1000+ range. They live happily in their placebo world and don't want to know that they wasted $900 for a cool brand name. I've seen the same thing on the Swedish HiFiForum.nu
But then again, having a cable with pure silver instead of a copper alloy makes an expensive cable. And there are people with way better hearing than you or me, who would pick out minute differences.
Edited to add:
If Randi is considering moving to more general consumer products, rather than psychic services, audiophile cables isn't a very good place to start, like JohnOAS indicated. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/15/2007 17:04:57 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 17:37:09 [Permalink]
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It sure is interesting to me how much woo and subjectivity can come into audio. Sure, you experienced audio guys already knew that; not me.
(I do know is that the optical cables I now use on both my stereo and my computer make an extreme and noticeable difference in adding "presence" -- if that's the right word -- compared to my old RCA setups. But that's really a separate issue from the Pear Cable thing. My jump was from easily-degraded analog, to advanced digital signaling. That difference I can distinctly hear. It amazed me. The issue with the cables that the Challenge will test is going to be more of a matter of tiny perceived differences.)
I'm not even sure what kind of cables will be tested. Are these speaker wires, or are they, as I suspect, audio signal patch cables?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/15/2007 17:38:35 |
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Is Pear Cable right for the Randi Challenge?
