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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 18:58:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JohnOAS
Originally posted by Kil
Edited to add: some of my bolding tags are not working. I have no idea why... |
Coz' you forgot to close one.
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Found it. Thanks! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2007 : 03:07:56 [Permalink]
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I said it and please explain to me why you think “the governments of the world agreed because they had no other choice.”
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http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/
| "Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/22/2007 03:10:31 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 03:19:40 [Permalink]
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Here in note 17 of your Wikipedia article about the lack of negotiations in Afghanistan, Kil:
This new evidence came to light on Thurs. 4 Oct., just as the Prime Minister was setting out his case in Parliament. The Daily Telegraph reported an extraordinary story under the heading 'Pakistan halts secret plan for bin Laden trial'. (p. 9)
According to this report, leaders of two Pakistani Islamic parties, the Jamaat-i-Islami and the Jamaat Ulema-e-Islam, negotiated bin Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for the 11 September attacks. Bin Laden would be held under house arrest in Peshawar.
The first stage of the negotiations was carried out in Islamabad on Sat. 29 Sept., in Pakistan, when Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef, the Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan, met with Qazi Hussain Ahmad, leader of the Jamaat-i-Islami, and Hamid Gul, former director of Pakistan's inter-service intelligence agency.
The final stage of the negotiations was in Kandahar, on Mon. 1 Oct., when Qazi, and Maaulana Fazlur Rahman, head of the Jamaat Ulema-e-Islam, met Taliban supreme leader Mullah Omar.
'The proposal, which had bin Laden's approval, was that within the framework of Islamic shar'ia law evidence of his alleged involvement in the New York and Washington attacks would be placed before an international tribunal. The court would decide whether to try him on the spot or hand him over to America.' (Telegraph, 4 Oct., p. 9)
The British Government says that there is no nonviolent way to secure the capture or extradition of Osama bin Laden. But the Taliban have agreed an extradition deal. Amazingly, this extradition deal is reported to have had 'bin Laden's approval'. Admittedly, the deal only guaranteed extradition to Pakistan, but given Pakistan's new role as a US ally in the so-called "war on terrorism", the transfer from Afghanistan to Pakistan should have been a welcome step in bringing bin Laden to trial. Furthermore, the report clearly states that extradition to the United States would be a real possibility under this deal. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/22/2007 03:25:00 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 03:42:02 [Permalink]
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No offence, but you come off as a far left nutball who sees nothing but conspiracies fed to you by the Pacifica Foundation. You sound like a member of PETA only with a different agenda.
Please don't take that as an attack on you. I am only pointing out how you come off, and not who you are…
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I don't know that much about Pacifica. I've listened to Democracy Now several times, but I don't get that much out of it. I have a lot of respect for Amy Goodman, from what I've seen and heard of her. Do you think she's a far left nutball who sees nothing but conspiracies?
I assume by "nothing but conspiracies" you think I've said something somewhere that someone has made out of whole cloth. If that assumption is correct, please provide examples.
As to no difference between Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't know which is worse. I know a little more about Iraq because I've been paying attention to what's happening there since the sanctions began. Afghanistan, however, seems to be a worse example. That is, George Bush went into it knowing that he was risking the lives of millions of people. We'll never know how many died as a result of his quest for empire.
See:
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20020201.htm |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 09:35:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I said it and please explain to me why you think “the governments of the world agreed because they had no other choice.”
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http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/
| "Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." |
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So your suggesting here that Bush's rhetoric in a speech actually gave no other countries a choice in the matter?
Iraq was presented as the war on terror too. Did most other countries go along then?
Lets not confuse rhetoric and hyperbolic language with reality.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 09:56:19 [Permalink]
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The British Government says that there is no nonviolent way to secure the capture or extradition of Osama bin Laden. But the Taliban have agreed an extradition deal. Amazingly, this extradition deal is reported to have had 'bin Laden's approval'. Admittedly, the deal only guaranteed extradition to Pakistan, but given Pakistan's new role as a US ally in the so-called "war on terrorism", the transfer from Afghanistan to Pakistan should have been a welcome step in bringing bin Laden to trial. Furthermore, the report clearly states that extradition to the United States would be a real possibility under this deal. |
I can't stop you from thinking that this was a sincere offer. But it defies logic. That bin Laden would approve of an offer that would actually puts his ass in jeopardy does not set off any alarms in your head?
| 'The proposal, which had bin Laden's approval, was that within the framework of Islamic shar'ia law evidence of his alleged involvement in the New York and Washington attacks would be placed before an international tribunal. The court would decide whether to try him on the spot or hand him over to America.' |
In other words, the offer included control over who would decide if bin Laded was to be tried at all, stacking the deck in his favor.
You can look at this offer anyway you want to. What I see is a bullshit offer…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:04:26 [Permalink]
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Lets not confuse rhetoric and hyperbolic language for reality.
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Let's not confuse threats with idle talk:
| In comments before the assembly of more than 1,000 delegates, the president warned that some states, "while pledging to uphold the principles of the UN, have cast their lot with the terrorists," alluding to Iraq. There will be "a price to be paid," Bush said. |
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1114/p7s1-wogi.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:08:18 [Permalink]
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You can look at this offer anyway you want to. What I see is a bullshit offer…
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What I see is you making excuses for murderers. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:19:24 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
I assume by "nothing but conspiracies" you think I've said something somewhere that someone has made out of whole cloth. If that assumption is correct, please provide examples. |
Oh, I could do that, but it's more your hyperbolic presentation that makes you sound conspiratorial.
Suggesting that the military approves of targeting civilians is an example of that. Or, that every president was a criminal, and other statements along those line.
Go back over this thread, and even look at the OP for examples of what I am talking about. Saying stuff like; “Crime does not solve crime” is self-evident but in the context that those words were presented, the fact of crime has yet to be established. And yet you said it as though it was.
And just for your information about where I am coming from, perhaps you should know that I belong to a lobbyist group called Peace Action. I donate to them and I generally support the positions they take, at least on a philosophical level…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:22:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
You can look at this offer anyway you want to. What I see is a bullshit offer…
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What I see is you making excuses for murderers.
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There you go again. I don't agree with you on how sincere the offer was, and I get this...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:29:08 [Permalink]
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What I see is you making excuses for murderers.
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There you go again. I don't agree with you on how sincere the offer was, and I get this...
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Bush said "no negotiations." Offers were made, but turned down without a word. Millions of lives were risked, for a goal that has not been achieved, and for a world that is less safe. We don't know how many lives were wasted. Afghanistan's fragile economy further destroyed. Years of game playing by the U.S. part of the cause of their plight to begin with.
This never had anything to do with making the world a better place for anyone but a few. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/22/2007 10:30:17 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:33:41 [Permalink]
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At Peace Action we believe...
that war is not a suitable response to conflict. |
Do you believe that, Kil? Yet you support this war, and think that the Iraq war was a "mistake," do I have it right? That talking about international law and trying to change things is "hyperbole?" |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:34:48 [Permalink]
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Suggesting that the military approves of targeting civilians is an example of that. |
Tell me where I said that, Kil.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:45:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Suggesting that the military approves of targeting civilians is an example of that. |
Tell me where I said that, Kil.
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Gorgo:
Let's put aside those stories in the Nation about people we know who do intentionally kill civilians, or take actions that they know will increase the risk to civilians. Let's not talk about the guy that intentionally bombs a building to satisfy some racist longing to kill Arabs. We know that happens, and we know the U.S. military allows it, but let's put that aside. |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 10:49:12 [Permalink]
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Or, that every president was a criminal, and other statements along those line.
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Did I really say this? I'd have to see that as well. I don't know that "every" president is a criminal. I'd have no way to know that. I'm not too knowledgable about law, but I sure no nothing about pre-wwII law, so I don't think I'd say that in the context of them having broken laws.
I suppose it's possible I used the term in some way to mean that a lot of them did reprehensible things, but I can't imagine saying that "every" president was a criminal. There are limits, even to my knowledge, believe it or not, and I'd have to take that back if I really did say it, so I'd like you to show me. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Crime or Military Action
Topic Locked
