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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2007 : 20:30:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
what if you DO have a pin number.
oh and Jesus probably wouldn't torture anybody.
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Neither should anyone else. Not even American soldiers. 
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For the most part, it appears the torture has not been done by American soldiers, but by the CIA, and especially by foreign operatives (in those cynical "rendition" operations), that the the CIA gets to do the actual dirty work as they sit there taking notes.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/23/2007 20:32:08 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 13:34:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
For the most part, it appears the torture has not been done by American soldiers, but by the CIA, and especially by foreign operatives (in those cynical "rendition" operations), that the the CIA gets to do the actual dirty work as they sit there taking notes. |
What's the friggin' difference?
It's people employed, or working for, the American government, the Great Bastion Of Democracy and Freedom.
I thought it was against the code of military justice to allow prisoners of war to be mistreated. If so, it's the American soldiers fucking duty to put a bullet in the CIA operative in defence of the POW. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 17:46:12 [Permalink]
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Mab asked:
What's the friggin' difference?
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None.
Its just a clarification of the specific parties responsible.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 18:10:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by HalfMooner
For the most part, it appears the torture has not been done by American soldiers, but by the CIA, and especially by foreign operatives (in those cynical "rendition" operations), that the the CIA gets to do the actual dirty work as they sit there taking notes. |
What's the friggin' difference?
It's people employed, or working for, the American government, the Great Bastion Of Democracy and Freedom.
I thought it was against the code of military justice to allow prisoners of war to be mistreated. If so, it's the American soldiers fucking duty to put a bullet in the CIA operative in defence of the POW.
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It makes no difference to the victims, certainly. But most of our soldiers are decent people, and their minimal role in the tortures should be known. The "high value" prisoners probably aren't in military custody very long. At the time that a moral soldier might be wanting to put a bullet into the torturer, the CIA's got 'em.
If torture were ocurring regularly in, or at the behest of, Sweden, Mab, isn't one of the first questions you'd want to ask, "Who's doing it?" These details may be more important to someone in the offending nation who wants to correct the practice, than to someone from outside, or to a victim.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/24/2007 18:22:45 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 18:45:16 [Permalink]
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So in summary, it seems America's position on torture is: "We never torture prisoners under any circumstances...we just loan them to people who do."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2007 : 19:18:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
So in summary, it seems America's position on torture is: "We never torture prisoners under any circumstances...we just loan them to people who do."
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Yeah, that, and we won't be pinned down on the definition.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 05:19:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by H. Humbert
So in summary, it seems America's position on torture is: "We never torture prisoners under any circumstances...we just loan them to people who do."
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Yeah, that, and we won't be pinned down on the definition.
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Right. We interrogate people using techniques that we insist are not torture. But we can't define for you what torture actually is. So how we know our interrogation techniques are not torture is anyone's guess. Unofficial Administration Position: "Just try to prove we tortured anyone. We dare you." |
-Chaloobi
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 10:45:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
If torture were ocurring regularly in, or at the behest of, Sweden, Mab, isn't one of the first questions you'd want to ask, "Who's doing it?" These details may be more important to someone in the offending nation who wants to correct the practice, than to someone from outside, or to a victim. |
In Sweden's case, it was the Egyptians, and CIA provided the transport. Two Egyptians held by Swedish authorities for (I believe it was) illegal immigration, and was getting deported, a decision recommended by the Swedish Security Police (this was in 2001) who flagged the Egyptians as suspected terrorists. CIA offered to "handle" the transportation, and picked them up at a Stockholm airport, and flew them to Egypt where they were subjected to torture. Now, in the defence of the Swedish government, the Egyptian authorities allegedly promised there would be no torture, but that that's a dodgy excuse which the government received a lot of heat for. We know torture happens in Egyptian prisons, so the deportation was questionable. The Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman came to the conclusion that the government's approval of the deportation and its method was a violation of the European laws on torture. The Swedish Prime Minister at that time have recently officially expressed regret of the decision to execute the deportation. This year, the current government reversed the deportation order, and one of the Egyptians will most probably be awarded damages for the time suffered. The other Egyptian was convicted in a military court in Egypt.
The political fallout hasn't been insignificant.
ACLU is suing a Swedish daughter company to Boeing, Jeppsen Dataplan AB, claiming they have evidence of participation in three cases of "prison transport" conducted by CIA. It is unknown at this time if the Swedish-Egyptian transport was one of them.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/25/2007 10:46:59 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 11:09:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by HalfMooner
If torture were ocurring regularly in, or at the behest of, Sweden, Mab, isn't one of the first questions you'd want to ask, "Who's doing it?" These details may be more important to someone in the offending nation who wants to correct the practice, than to someone from outside, or to a victim. |
In Sweden's case, it was the Egyptians, and CIA provided the transport. Two Egyptians held by Swedish authorities for (I believe it was) illegal immigration, and was getting deported, a decision recommended by the Swedish Security Police (this was in 2001) who flagged the Egyptians as suspected terrorists. CIA offered to "handle" the transportation, and picked them up at a Stockholm airport, and flew them to Egypt where they were subjected to torture. Now, in the defence of the Swedish government, the Egyptian authorities allegedly promised there would be no torture, but that that's a dodgy excuse which the government received a lot of heat for. We know torture happens in Egyptian prisons, so the deportation was questionable. The Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman came to the conclusion that the government's approval of the deportation and its method was a violation of the European laws on torture. The Swedish Prime Minister at that time have recently officially expressed regret of the decision to execute the deportation. This year, the current government reversed the deportation order, and one of the Egyptians will most probably be awarded damages for the time suffered. The other Egyptian was convicted in a military court in Egypt.
The political fallout hasn't been insignificant.
ACLU is suing a Swedish daughter company to Boeing, Jeppsen Dataplan AB, claiming they have evidence of participation in three cases of "prison transport" conducted by CIA. It is unknown at this time if the Swedish-Egyptian transport was one of them.
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That's terrible. I gave Sweden as a hypothetical for a thought experiment, but didn't know there had been similar activities there. But the case does point out how important it is to track down those who were actually involved. I can't believe that Swedish intelligence would turn people over to the CIA just to save transport costs, without any idea that harm was going to come to the people. I honestly doubt the CIA even had to lie to Swedish intelligence, but only wink and nod.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/25/2007 11:10:20 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 12:39:48 [Permalink]
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| Bottom Line: Should Congress confirm Mukasey after using this obvious dodge on such an important issue? |
-Chaloobi
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 13:23:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Bottom Line: Should Congress confirm Mukasey after using this obvious dodge on such an important issue? |
As a judge, isn't it his job to make a decision after looking at the facts? If he doesn't know exactly what happens, how can you expect a response? Judges are supposed to be impartial, right? Shouldn't that, rather than gut feelings born of incomplete descriptions, be the deciding factor? |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 13:39:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by chaloobi
Bottom Line: Should Congress confirm Mukasey after using this obvious dodge on such an important issue? |
As a judge, isn't it his job to make a decision after looking at the facts? If he doesn't know exactly what happens, how can you expect a response? Judges are supposed to be impartial, right? Shouldn't that, rather than gut feelings born of incomplete descriptions, be the deciding factor?
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Except he wasn't asked about a specific case, he was asked about a well-known technique. What facts about the practice waterboarding are unavailable to him that might keep him from determining whether or not it qualifies as torture? If you're suggesting that Mukasey just might be genuinely unfamiliar with the practice, then I would still count such ignorance of current and contentious issues to count as a major strike against him. But come on, if you and I know what waterboarding is, then it stretches plausibility to think a judge up for one of the most important jobs in the nation doesn't know what it entails.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/25/2007 13:44:53 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 14:07:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Except he wasn't asked about a specific case, he was asked about a well-known technique. What facts about the practice waterboarding are unavailable to him that might keep him from determining whether or not it qualifies as torture? If you're suggesting that Mukasey just might be genuinely unfamiliar with the practice, then I would still count such ignorance of current and contentious issues to count as a major strike against him. But come on, if you and I know what waterboarding is, then it stretches plausibility to think a judge up for one of the most important jobs in the nation doesn't know what it entails. |
In principle I agree; however, I think his explanation here is perfectly reasonable: From the article
"I know the way cross-examinations proceed. You start with an easy step and then you go down the road. I don't want to go down the road on interrogation techniques," he said. "Did the things that were presented to me seem over the line to me as I sit here? Of course they did."
But he added, "I think I need to be very careful about where I go on that subject." |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 15:51:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
That's terrible. I gave Sweden as a hypothetical for a thought experiment, but didn't know there had been similar activities there. But the case does point out how important it is to track down those who were actually involved. I can't believe that Swedish intelligence would turn people over to the CIA just to save transport costs, without any idea that harm was going to come to the people. I honestly doubt the CIA even had to lie to Swedish intelligence, but only wink and nod. |
There is only one known instance, involving two foreigners. I seriously doubt there'd be more, because Sweden is too open as a society for it not creeping out as is did in this case.
CIA informed SÄPO (Swedish Security Police) that we had them in our country and that they were considered terrorists, and aparently offered SÄPO to fix the transport. The government was presented with a deportation case for them, and they executed it. The lid was kept on as the Egyptians were considered a security risk.
edited to add:
It's not the first time that Swedish government dance to American pipes.
Three citizens got all their assets frozen because they turned up on an American list of people who's assets should be frozen because of suspected terrorist activity. One of them was a Swedish Parliament member for fuck's sake!
For three years the American government refused to present evidence of their case to Swedish authorities so they could make their own judgement. For three years they couldn't even pick up their pay-check, but had to live on social security. Giving them money was a criminal offence.
Finally after three years some Swedish diplomat finally grew some spine and pressed the American government for evidence, and then suddenly out of the blue, their names were withdrawn from the Suspected Terrorist list. 
Do you, who live in USA, ever hear of these things?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/25/2007 16:00:13 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2007 : 21:07:53 [Permalink]
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He isn't being nominated for a judge position, he is being nominated for the AG slot.
So if he doesn't know what torture is, and isn't, before he takes the job.... how will he be able to recognize it and prosecute it?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Mukasey won't say if "waterboarding" is torture
