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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2007 : 15:43:36 [Permalink]
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bngbuck said:
However, I really was referring to what I perceive as a stifling of imagination by the rigid demands (the 'hard work') of critical thought!
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Critical thinking doesn't stifle the imagination. Pretty far from it. I read anywhere from 1-5 books a week (usually, work/school load can cause that to sometimes be zero), the huge majority of what I read is fantasy/sci-fi/ and other sorts of speculative fiction.
Critical thinking does make you think about a subject before you make a claim though. If anything, it challenges the imagination and expands your ability to think creatively when you have to tackle a difficult topic and remain scientifically rigid in your conclusions.
The least imaginitive people I know are those who LACK the skill of thinking critically!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 15:46:59 [Permalink]
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Yeah, when confronted by an unknown phenomenon, settling on an answer such as "a ghost did it" is about as lazy and unimaginative as you can get. Far from being close-minded, the skeptic is keeping an open mind to all the other possibilities that the true believer has dismissed!
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 20:14:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Yes, that was a part of what I was thinking about. I have to agree with Gorgo that in the limited time (2-3 months) I have been here, I have seen precious little self-deprecating disclaimer from anyone, including myself! |
What do you mean by "precious little?"However, I really was referring to what I perceive as a stifling of imagination by the rigid demands (the 'hard work') of critical thought!
Occam prevails, to the exclusion of any other possibilities!
Of course there is enormous value in the application of critical thinking to scientific conundrums. And it is an extraordinary tool when used to break the shackles of the tyranny of religious indocrination, witness Dawkins, et al.
But the apparent aversion of many critical thinkers, Skeptics if you will, to the hypothetical, to "imagine, if you will for a moment..."is evident. Imaginary scenarios seem too unlikely, removed from reality, to capture the attention of many skeptics. We want evidence! To confirm or discredit! Bust the myth or uphold it! |
Two points:
If you were to go to almost every one of your local minor-league baseball team's games, would you complain that they don't play enough golf for your taste? Honestly, if you're going to frequent a skeptic's website, what should you expect? Within skepticism, there's a time and place for imagination, and it's used as often as necessary. Perhaps you've missed the moral-dilemma threads and the "is there anything that's impossible" threads. Tons of imaginitive things go on in those sorts of threads - and then there's "Moonscape News" and marf's artwork, and the not-too-infrequent mentions of role-playing games. Really, the second step of the proverbial Scientific Method is "come up with a hypothesis to explain your observations," which is nothing less than a demand to be imaginitive.
Second: Occam's Razor is often misused by skeptics and non-skeptics alike. I've done it myself, and was wrong to. Many people take it to mean that the more complex of two explanations is likely to be wrong, and thus abuse the Razor by ignoring such possibilities. But really, the Razor is only useful for showing which of two research paths might be more rewarding - at the start or research. It's intent was never to be used after the research had been done, to pick between competing theories, but that's the way a lot of people apply it (to "snip away" excess baggage). And (to tie back in to my first point), if you can't dream up multiple hypotheses for the same phenomenon, then Occam's Razor is utterly useless: it's proper use depends upon imagination.| Consequently, to the uncompromising critical thinker, Skepticism does become a sort of dogma, a religion. And the thinking remains largely within the skeptical box! |
Except when it doesn't, which is quite often. But you'll probably not see that here as much, because people generally don't come here to discuss their creative hobbies (not that we don't have room for it). They come here to exercise their skepticism. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 20:52:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by bngbuck
Consequently, to the uncompromising critical thinker, Skepticism does become a sort of dogma, a religion. And the thinking remains largely within the skeptical box! |
Except when it doesn't, which is quite often. But you'll probably not see that here as much, because people generally don't come here to discuss their creative hobbies (not that we don't have room for it). They come here to exercise their skepticism.
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I wouldn't even concede that much, Dave. You've already noted how creativity is practically built into the scientific method. And critical thinking is the exact opposite of uncritically accepting dogma. Skepticism is the opposite of a religion, even when practiced vigorously. Maybe especially so. An uncompromising critical thinker is a person dogma cannot touch.
bngbuck is just repeating a popular misconception--that science and skepticism are cold, dour, joyless pursuits intent on destroying any vestiges of creativity, hope, and whimsy left in the world. Needless to say, it's an utterly false (and quite insulting) accusation.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/28/2007 20:53:27 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 22:05:03 [Permalink]
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bngbuck, think of critical thinking and skepticism as tools, not as philosophies or world-views. Skepticism is a shovel. It's simply a tool for removing obscuring piles of excrement that have been dumped upon the real world.
The skeptics here choose to use their shovels on various heaps of dung. And we often use them upon one another, sometimes as bludgeons. Hardly the mark of groupthink or closed minds.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 23:30:53 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
| Needless to say, it's an utterly false (and quite insulting) accusation. |
I don't think bngbuck was being accusatory. He probably (incorrectly) sees the dismissal, by the majority here, of things like aliens buzzing our airports and Storm's ghosts as closeminded.
It is not an uncommon misperception, the true believers who roll through here (whatever their belief is, dieties, ghosts, aliens, 9/11 conspiracies, etc) almost always resort to accusing us of being closed minded when we demand evidence or inform them that their "evidence" doesn't meet minimal evidentiary standards or doesn't mean what they think it means.
There is a difference between closed mindedness and an insistance on legitimate evidence for claims.
Also, as I (and others) have said, creative thinking and imagination go hand in hand with science, critical thinking, and skepticism. They are, in fact, required elements.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 00:11:35 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: dog·ma
Function: noun
1 a: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b: a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c: |
Wiki, Critical Thinking
One can regard critical thinking as involving two aspects:
1. A set of cognitive skills, intellectual standards, and traits of mind
2. The disposition or intellectual commitment to use those structures to improve thinking and guide behavior. |
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Function: noun
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith |
Can regarding a subject as______, be correctly construed as having an opinion on the subject?
If yes, can Critical Thinking properly be perceived as one form of dogma?
And, again if yes, can Skepticism properly be seen, in a broad context, as a religion involving dogma?
I completely understand that this is persuasion by definition, or classical rhetoric, yet what else do we have as a starting place than a definition of terms?
Dude, Humbert, and Dave have all posed interesting thrusts to the syllogistic argumentation above. I will attempt to respond to each tomorrow, as it's midnight and I have a full day ahead!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 02:37:10 [Permalink]
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| faith: firm or unquestioning belief in something for which there is no proof |
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Function: noun
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith |
Skepticism demands evidence, nothing is accepted on faith, therefore it cannot be a religion.
Your syllogism is unsound bgnbuck.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 03:59:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Gorgo.....
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
[quote]Main Entry: dog·ma
Function: noun
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I think you have to be careful of definitions. Dogma generally has negative connotations here. Everyone would accept that gravity is a generally accepted idea, and that's not bad. If that's dogma, then dogma is okay. If by dogma you mean generally accepted ideas that are not based on reason and fact, such as the idea that Jesus can heal, and if by dogma you mean that if you don't believe it then we'll burn you at the stake, then no, I don't think you see that coming from Dude or Dave or me generally.
I think what you see coming from Dude or Dave or Humbert for the most part is reasoned, thoughtful discussion, when they're talking about math or science or MOST other subjects. The fact that they do so in a pack sometimes, is interesting, but that does not make them wrong. The fact that we are largely male here, is interesting, but does not make them wrong. When they are wrong, sometimes, I wonder if the pack mentality helps them to think they're right, and if you can provide examples of that here, with evidence, even they would appreciate it, I'm sure.
Back to definitions-If you mean religion to mean how you organize your beliefs about a supernatural ruler of the universe, then no, this is not a religion. If you mean religion to mean a point of view that we can sometimes be passionate about, then yes, it is a religion, but how are these definitions really helpful to anyone?
If you're worried about people having a hard time proving something that science does not give any validity, then that's a good thing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Not because the people are biased and imperfect, which they may be, but because extraordinary claims usually contradict a lot of well-founded principles based on good evidence.
(edited to put in the not in the sentence about validity) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/29/2007 07:55:19 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 07:26:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Can regarding a subject as______, be correctly construed as having an opinion on the subject?
If yes, can Critical Thinking properly be perceived as one form of dogma?
And, again if yes, can Skepticism properly be seen, in a broad context, as a religion involving dogma? |
The only thing that could potentially be considered dogmatic about skepticism is the idea that skepticism is a good method with which to separate truth from fiction.
After all, any conclusions reached about particular subjects through the use of skepticism could not be "definite authoritative tenets" because skepticism demands that we hold conclusions only tentatively. Besides, they wouldn't be about skepticism, but rather something else (if you use a shovel to dig a BBQ pit, the pit is not the shovel).
If you choose to use "something held as an established opinion" as the definition of "dogma," then you begin to strip the term of any useful meaning. "The sky is blue" becomes "dogma." You might, instead, check more than one dictionary. Even Wikipedia has an entry for it:Dogma... is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed or doubted. It's that last clause that really separates dogmas from (for example) authoritative expert opinions.
And the "dogma" entry in The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy is particularly interesting:In general, a belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty... Dogmatism is one possible reaction to skepticism: it selects some set of propositions and insists, apparently arbitrarily, that they be not doubted. (Edited to add bolding.)| I completely understand that this is persuasion by definition, or classical rhetoric, yet what else do we have as a starting place than a definition of terms? |
Indeed. What, exactly, do you mean by "faith?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 11:51:12 [Permalink]
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| I love the insinuation that skepticism stifles imagination. Most of my book collection is Science Fiction....heavy on the fiction. I still enjoy a good Sci-Fi movie or Superhero movie and love playing video games that defy any known laws of nature. However, I must admit to having an aversion to most things "supernatural"......even flicks like the Sixth Sense. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 12:07:55 [Permalink]
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| I meant to add that I only know of one skeptic who avoids fiction: Professor Robert Carroll, of Skeptic's Dictionary fame. If I remember correctly, he says he just doesn't have time to spend on fiction. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 14:04:49 [Permalink]
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This is just pure annecdote, but in my experience almost all the people I know personally who are serious skeptics (SFN version, not 9/11 "truth" version) are also pretty serious geeks, pen&paper RPG players, sci-fi fans, ardent readers of fantasy and other fiction, etc.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 15:41:47 [Permalink]
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I love movies or fiction that use supernatural themes, so long as there's good writing, acting, etc. It's important that they follow the rule of using only one (or very few) impossible elements, and do so in an internally logical and consistent manner, with good plot elements and characters that one can identify with. I get all the fun, awe and amazement I need by employing suspension of disbelief.
I can cheerfully go right back to being a hard-headed skeptic afterward, but maybe one with a little more flexibility of mind, and with a better understanding of the kind of stuff woos take too seriously. (Woos don't seem to have an "off" setting for their suspension of disbelief switches.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 17:24:46 [Permalink]
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Everyone......
I don't want anyone to think that I have walked away from this topic! I emphatically have not! I am frantically working on two PCs simultaneously to try and catch up - trying to sort out the major sub-issues into a few categories and formulate response to each.(Got a few other things to do, also!)
I greatly appreciate the response to my questions, and I will begin answering specific questions tonight! |
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Suicide Bombing - AAI
