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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2007 : 15:52:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by chaloobi
You mean you will only support a candidate who wants to make abortion against the law? In other words, your key interest is to limit other people's freedom; specifically to limit a freedom that, when exercised, doesn't affect you in any meaningful way... Why? 
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It all hinges on whether one believes a fetus is a person or not. I do, so you can see why it affects me.
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So you support limiting other people's freedom, freedom that if exercised does not affect you in any meaningful way, simply because if you knew what they were doing in their private lives you would find it distasteful? And this is your most important political issue? |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 11/29/2007 15:53:50 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 17:45:17 [Permalink]
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Robb, I'm not sure that nowadays, you're going to find someone who will be able to be a "uniter and not a divider." The right-wing media outlets (Rush, Hannity, etc.) demonize any and all Democrats, and their huge following falls in line lockstep parroting talking points even when they're utterly false. Indeed, even moderate-sounding policies are made out to be evil/communist/socialist/etc., to this crowd.
On the other hand, normal, moderate-sounding candidates on the left are nowadays forced to out-Jesus one another to the extreme, alienating a significant part of the population. Look at what whoring to the rabid religious right has done to John McCain. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 03:43:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Robb, I'm not sure that nowadays, you're going to find someone who will be able to be a "uniter and not a divider." The right-wing media outlets (Rush, Hannity, etc.) demonize any and all Democrats, and their huge following falls in line lockstep parroting talking points even when they're utterly false. Indeed, even moderate-sounding policies are made out to be evil/communist/socialist/etc., to this crowd.
On the other hand, normal, moderate-sounding candidates on the left are nowadays forced to out-Jesus one another to the extreme, alienating a significant part of the population. Look at what whoring to the rabid religious right has done to John McCain.
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The effect of that right-wing echo-chamber cannot be underestimated either. I've got family that parrots that shit all the time; people I'd thought were more or less moderate ten years ago are extreme right now. When you spend most of your day with crap like that whispering in your ear and no counter POV, really no thought a counter POV is needed, you internalise it. |
-Chaloobi
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:16:48 [Permalink]
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So you support limiting other people's freedom, freedom that if exercised does not affect you in any meaningful way, simply because if you knew what they were doing in their private lives you would find it distasteful? And this is your most important political issue?
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Yes it is. I know that you do not believe that a fetus is a person until some time during the pregnency. I believe it is a person from fertilization, therefore I believe we are killing people. What greater issue is there then that in this country. I would gladly restrict the freedoms of people that want to harm others. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 08:21:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Robb, I'm not sure that nowadays, you're going to find someone who will be able to be a "uniter and not a divider." The right-wing media outlets (Rush, Hannity, etc.) demonize any and all Democrats, and their huge following falls in line lockstep parroting talking points even when they're utterly false. Indeed, even moderate-sounding policies are made out to be evil/communist/socialist/etc., to this crowd.
On the other hand, normal, moderate-sounding candidates on the left are nowadays forced to out-Jesus one another to the extreme, alienating a significant part of the population. Look at what whoring to the rabid religious right has done to John McCain.
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I cannot disagree with this. I get sick of when the democrates say something about Bush and the republicans basically say Clinton did the same thing and worse. I am sick of hearing about Bill Clinton and what is wrong with Bush. There is plenty of blame to go around but not many good solutions. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 10:57:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
So you support limiting other people's freedom, freedom that if exercised does not affect you in any meaningful way, simply because if you knew what they were doing in their private lives you would find it distasteful? And this is your most important political issue?
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I know that you do not believe that a fetus is a person until some time during the pregnency. |
Actually, you don't know that. I've never stated my ideas of when life begins, or what a 'person' even is for that matter.
This is not a simple issue. In fact, this isn't a single issue at all - it's a family of issues that overlap and cascade from each other. And to sum it up with 'I define an embryo as a person and killing persons is wrong so abortion must be stopped for everyone' is a gross and erroneous simplification. It's an easy chain of logic and doesn't require much thought, or acceptance of complex and uncomfortable realities, but it cheapens and misleads and to base policy on it is at best irresponsible. |
-Chaloobi
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 12:18:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
...I know that you do not believe that a fetus is a person until some time during the pregnency. I believe it is a person from fertilization, therefore I believe we are killing people. What greater issue is there then that in this country. I would gladly restrict the freedoms of people that want to harm others.
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A fetus is a person? That's fine if you want to believe that, but it strikes me as odd that the pro-life side shows zero concern for children after they are born. The moral dilemma of innocent Iraqi and Afghani kids killed as collateral damage by our troops and opposing insurgents doesn't appear on the conservative radar. Its not the immediate, vote generating political issue they're looking for. After all, actually trying to make our world better in any real sense, by opposing war is for them, too abstract and not politically self-serving enough.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 12:58:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
A fetus is a person? That's fine if you want to believe that, but it strikes me as odd that the pro-life side shows zero concern for children after they are born. The moral dilemma of innocent Iraqi and Afghani kids killed as collateral damage by our troops and opposing insurgents doesn't appear on the conservative radar. Its not the immediate, vote generating political issue they're looking for. After all, actually trying to make our world better in any real sense, by opposing war is for them, too abstract and not politically self-serving enough.
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Don't mix up the exploiters with the exploitees. There's a big difference between those who imagine an aborition as the killing of a little baby, and wrap their hearts around that, and those who would cynically tug on their heart strings to garner votes for a policy platform these otherwise sensible people would never support. Those who support abortion bans, while IMO misguided and mistaken, are infinitely better than those, like Karl Rove, who exploit them to gain power. |
-Chaloobi
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 14:12:16 [Permalink]
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A fetus is a person? That's fine if you want to believe that, but it strikes me as odd that the pro-life side shows zero concern for children after they are born. The moral dilemma of innocent Iraqi and Afghani kids killed as collateral damage by our troops and opposing insurgents doesn't appear on the conservative radar. Its not the immediate, vote generating political issue they're looking for. After all, actually trying to make our world better in any real sense, by opposing war is for them, too abstract and not politically self-serving enough.
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Good one. I am a christian and I want to kill children all around the world. The less children the better. I hate children and god hates children. Kill them all! Jesus says War is Good! |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 20:51:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Good one. I am a christian and I want to kill children all around the world. The less children the better. I hate children and god hates children. Kill them all! Jesus says War is Good!
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Personally, I don't think you do, but the statement is figuratively true in a symbolic sense if one equates the essence of fundamentalist Christianity today as a right-wing political movement rather than a real religion. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 10:59:06 [Permalink]
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| Whatever US Conservative Christianity is, religion or political crusade, it's not much like the Christianity preached by Jesus Christ himself. There is no possible way you could be pro conservative Republican policy and at the same time be following Jesus' example. The two are diametrically opposite in so many ways the result is institutionalized hypocracy. And it's practice and preaching mystifies me to no end. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 12/01/2007 11:00:55 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 15:36:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
There is plenty of blame to go around but not many good solutions.
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The sollution is a total restructuring of the entire election process.
This two party system you have in America in only one party better than the old Soviet Union one party system. And you call it democracy? (I can't stop giggling at the thought)  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 16:13:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
There is plenty of blame to go around but not many good solutions.
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The sollution is a total restructuring of the entire election process.
This two party system you have in America in only one party better than the old Soviet Union one party system. And you call it democracy? (I can't stop giggling at the thought)
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That's not entirely fair, Mab! Our election system isn't perfect, for sure. But suggesting (however jokingly) that we're just a step away from the Soviet Union is rather off base, no? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 16:56:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
There is plenty of blame to go around but not many good solutions.
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The solution is a total restructuring of the entire election process.
This two party system you have in America in only one party better than the old Soviet Union one party system. And you call it democracy? (I can't stop giggling at the thought)
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That's not entirely fair, Mab! Our election system isn't perfect, for sure. But suggesting (however jokingly) that we're just a step away from the Soviet Union is rather off base, no?
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Indeed. Sweden has seven parties in its parliament. So we are only six steps away from the Soviet Union.
It is indeed wore than that, because among the parties, there have historically only been four parties that have contributed people for the position of Prime Minister the last 50 years.
That makes us only three steps away from the Soviet Union.
However, at any given moment the last 20 years no single party has ruled by majority: There have been at least two other parties needed for support to get majority. That means making trade-offs to a broader political spectrum than a single party represent.
What America lacks is political diversity. And it seems to me your setup does not encourage such. Especially since people, organisations, and companies can spend an insane amount of money on political advertising aimed at an apathetic consumer majority. Effectively making America a plutocracy, rather than a democracy.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/01/2007 16:57:32 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2007 : 18:23:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
There is plenty of blame to go around but not many good solutions.
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The sollution is a total restructuring of the entire election process.
This two party system you have in America in only one party better than the old Soviet Union one party system. And you call it democracy? (I can't stop giggling at the thought)
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That's not entirely fair, Mab! Our election system isn't perfect, for sure. But suggesting (however jokingly) that we're just a step away from the Soviet Union is rather off base, no?
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IMHO our election system is very messed up and our two party system is barely democratic. |
-Chaloobi
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Ron Paul - Not your hero
