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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2007 : 19:52:36
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Go team, go!....be sure to watch the several minute long sidewalk interview video of Newdow. Clickable video link on the right appears just below
the "In dog We Trust" currency image....
http://www.ktvu.com/news/14769671/detail.html
SAN FRANCISCO -- A Sacramento atheist made an ardent plea to a federal appeals court Tuesday to respect his religion and remove the words "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency.
"I want to be treated equally," said Michael Newdow, who argued both cases consecutively to a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. "They want to have their religious views espoused by the government."
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2007 : 20:41:02 [Permalink]
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| I thought this happened some time ago. Am I mistaken? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 22:07:22 [Permalink]
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No, you're not really mistaken. Read the article:Newdow, a Sacramento doctor and lawyer, sued his daughter's school district in 2000 for forcing public school children to recite the pledge, saying it was unconstitutional.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in Newdow's favor in 2002, but two years later, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that he lacked standing to sue because he didn't have custody of the daughter on whose behalf he brought the case. He immediately filed a second lawsuit on behalf of three unidentified parents and their children in another district.
In 2005, a federal judge in Sacramento again found in favor of Newdow, ruling the pledge was unconstitutional. The judge said he was following the precedent set by the 9th Circuit Court's ruling in Newdow's first case. This latest bit is the next step in Newdow's legal quest. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Risendemonx
New Member
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 09:51:36 [Permalink]
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Hello everybody!
I just thought you'd be interested to know that a goof-up in early 2007 already gave us a small victory in this area- Collectors estimate about 50,000 washington dollars made it out of the mints without the inscription "In God we Trust" on them. As an ameteure coin collector, I thought it was interesting.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=2931369
Oh, by the way, i'm a long time lurker, first time poster here- I couldn't find how to actually post a link in here using Forum code, so I just cut-pasted the link. Sorry, could anybody help a newbie out and show me how to post? :-) |
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
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Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Risendemonx
New Member
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 12:43:13 [Permalink]
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well yes, it was a minting error which omitted all of the edge incriptions, not just "In God we Trust"
Thanks for the help, and the welcome Dave! |
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 16:53:23 [Permalink]
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| Welcome Risendemonx! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 20:00:18 [Permalink]
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Regarding "In God We Trust" and "Under God" I have to say I can't believe nobody's sued and gotten them removed before. They are blatantly unconstitutional - you'd have to be completely ignorant of the constitution to think otherwise. And if they DO get removed, I have to say I can't imagine what the "War on Christmas" folks are going to say about it. Crazy shit.
I was thinking about the rise of the Christian Right in comparison to what the CIA did in Soviet Occupied Afghanistan. They trained these Islamic Fundie lunatics in how to make war, how to build bombs, how to really fuck with a major military power and they gave the Soviets their 'Viet Nam.' Big victory in the cold war that was and they also inadvertantly set in motion the chain of events that led directly to 9/11. Oops.
Now think about the Christian Right. The Karl Roves of the political mileau found a way to energize these people, line them up like good soldiers and scammed them into voting for platforms they otherwise wouldn't be interested in. At the same time though, they showed these nut jobs how to 'get out the vote' and how to use religous belief to flex political power. And I wonder, have they done the same thing with the Religous Right that they did with the Jihadis in Afghanistan in the '80s? Will this dog turn around and bite nasty? What is the long term consequences for the US of energizing religous fundies to political activism? |
-Chaloobi
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 21:36:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Randy
Go team, go!....be sure to watch the several minute long sidewalk interview video of Newdow. Clickable video link on the right appears just below
the "In dog We Trust" currency image....
http://www.ktvu.com/news/14769671/detail.html
SAN FRANCISCO -- A Sacramento atheist made an ardent plea to a federal appeals court Tuesday to respect his religion and remove the words "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency.
"I want to be treated equally," said Michael Newdow, who argued both cases consecutively to a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. "They want to have their religious views espoused by the government."
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As a Christian I do not think it is worth the time or money fighting this. It does not infringe on my right to freely follow Christ. Although I would be against its removal. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 22:00:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
As a Christian I do not think it is worth the time or money fighting this. It does not infringe on my right to freely follow Christ. Although I would be against its removal. |
You aren't making any sense. As a Christian, obviously having "In God We Trust" on a coin doesn't infringe on your right to follow Jesus. Moreover, not having "In God We Trust" doesn't infringe on said right. You can follow Jesus regardless.
It's not clear why you're "against its removal" but I certainly can't find any compelling reason to keep it. That my government feels compelled to note its "trust" in a mythical sky god is rather embarrassing. One might also argue with good reason that it's quite unconstitutional. After all, such a statement is clearly an endorsement of a Judeo-Christian worldview (as you tacitly admit), and this endorsement is to the exclusion of any other worldview. After all, few Christians would be happy with coins reading "In Marduk We Trust," no?
It's clear that not stating something isn't the same as negatively stating something. That is, me making no mention of my religion is not the same as affirming that I'm not Christian. But the reverse is not true. That the right-leaning Christians cannot see that is a sad comment on their respect for the Constitution. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 05:30:51 [Permalink]
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| Removing it is the right thing to do. But it probably won't happen, unfortunately. I'm not optimistic at all. GW has put too many conservatives on the SCOTUS. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 08:15:09 [Permalink]
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Even before GW came along, the courts largely regarded "Under God" and "In God We Trust" to be "ceremonial deism" at worst, and thus not an "establishment" of religion. That Newdow is and has been getting lower-court judges to agree with him is impressive.Originally posted by Cuneiformist
It's clear that not stating something isn't the same as negatively stating something. That is, me making no mention of my religion is not the same as affirming that I'm not Christian. |
The IDists, starting with the Wedge Document, have said quite clearly that anything which doesn't glorify God is deficient. It's not enough that evolution doesn't mention God, all sciences must include God or else be considered anti-God.
I wonder if these same people praise Jesus while taking a pee, or otherwise face brutal self-judgement for "atheistic urinating." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 08:20:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Even before GW came along, the courts largely regarded "Under God" and "In God We Trust" to be "ceremonial deism" at worst, and thus not an "establishment" of religion. That Newdow is and has been getting lower-court judges to agree with him is impressive. |
Right, which is why I'm not optimistic that once this gets to SCOTUS, they will vote not to remove. Even more so now.
Perhaps it will be changed to "Under The Designer" or "In An Intelligent Agency We Trust" in order to avoid the Establishment Clause and Teach the Controversy. Just have to get around that pesky Dover Ruling... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 09:18:03 [Permalink]
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| How about, "In Meaningless Mottos we Trust." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Risendemonx
New Member
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 09:22:40 [Permalink]
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I tend to think that getting it removed from the Pledge would be significantly easier than getting it removed from money, because it wasn't originally in the pledge. If memory serves me correctly, it was added in 1954, mostly as a mechanism to separate our "God fearing democracy" from those "godless corrupt communists"- In other words, it was added mostly as propaganda during the Cold War.
The inscription on our money, however, found its origins near the Civil War, and while it was added due to increased religous sentiment, it simply has more tradition behind it. Nobody today would think of removing God from the constitution of the US; not because it's unconstitutional, but rather because of the tradition and history behind it. "In God we trust" I think is along the same lines in many people's minds, and will be rather tricky to get rid of.
On the other hand, My grandmother still thinks it's weird to hear "under God" in the pledge. It doesn't really have all of that tradition and history behind it right now, and since it wasn't originally there, it would be easier to edit the pledge back to its original words.
Anyway, that's my two cents (pun certainly intended!). |
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 09:29:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Risendemonx
Nobody today would think of removing God from the constitution of the US; not because it's unconstitutional, but rather because of the tradition and history behind it. |
"God" doesn't appear in the Constitution. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Court debates "god" on money and pledge
