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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:16:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What imminent threat was there, Dave? What imminent threat did they remove? Did they they turn the matter over to the U.N. once that imminent threat was removed? |
Why are you asking me these questions? The administration is defending their choice to go to war by claiming an imminent threat. Because - as your source shows - such a defense is less than well-defined within the U.N. Charter, it remains an open question whether whatever nonsense Bush came up with qualifies or not.| The entire thread was about... [Dude] being rude and hostile... |
You are quite mistaken there, Gorgo. It was about you and Dude being rude and hostile, to each other. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:44:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally quoted by Gorgo
However there remains some debate about how "imminent" a threat has to be, and how large. |
So much for it being a cut-and-dried illegal war.
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What is unclear to you about this statement?
A "necessity of that self-defence is instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation".
Where did that exist, Dave?
From George:
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. (Applause.)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 08:55:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What is unclear to you about this statement? |
Nothing. Apparently it's unclear to the U.N. and legal scholars. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:03:40 [Permalink]
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Humor me, once. You must have read a lot on the subject. Would you please find me a legal scholar who says that this was not a violation of international law based on the idea that he or she has found that this is legal because they really were defending against an imminent attack? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd just like to read something to help me with your viewpoint.
I have to say, I understand that pro-war viewpoint (not saying you are pro-war) a lot better since I read Hitchens. I still think he's slightly daft, but I understand it better. I'd like to understand what you're saying better.
Can you help me, please? |
I know the rent is in arrears
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It's even worse than it appears
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:24:15 [Permalink]
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| No, I can't help you, because it's not my viewpoint. Don't mistake my comments for agreement with the Bush administration. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:43:45 [Permalink]
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It was about you and Dude being rude and hostile, to each other.
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Once again, your opinion is in error, and is in itself rude and hostile. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:51:56 [Permalink]
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I'm looking myself, but having a little trouble.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/38604/?page=2
Perhaps no person on the planet is better equipped to identify and describe our crimes in Iraq than Benjamin Ferencz, a former chief prosecutor of the Nuremberg Trials who successfully convicted 22 Nazi officers for their work in orchestrating death squads that killed more than one million people in the famous Einsatzgruppen Case. Ferencz, now 87, has gone on to become a founding father of the basis behind international law regarding war crimes, and his essays and legal work drawing from the Nuremberg trials and later the commission that established the International Criminal Court remain a lasting influence in that realm.
Ferencz's biggest contribution to the war crimes field is his assertion that an unprovoked or "aggressive" war is the highest crime against mankind. It was the decision to invade Iraq in 2003 that made possible the horrors of Abu Ghraib, the destruction of Fallouja and Ramadi, the tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths, civilian massacres like Haditha, and on and on. Ferencz believes that a "prima facie case can be made that the United States is guilty of the supreme crime against humanity, that being an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation."
Interviewed from his home in New York, Ferencz laid out a simple summary of the case:
"The United Nations charter has a provision which was agreed to by the United States formulated by the United States in fact, after World War II. Its says that from now on, no nation can use armed force without the permission of the U.N. Security Council. They can use force in connection with self-defense, but a country can't use force in anticipation of self-defense. Regarding Iraq, the last Security Council resolution essentially said, 'Look, send the weapons inspectors out to Iraq, have them come back and tell us what they've found -- then we'll figure out what we're going to do. The U.S. was impatient, and decided to invade Iraq -- which was all pre-arranged of course. So, the United States went to war, in violation of the charter." |
Rudeness and hostility is understandable. I understand the fear that causes it, as I'm human too, but it would be nice to get some facts along with all that. I can't get that from Dude, but I'm sure you'll be glad to help. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/12/2007 09:54:56 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:58:44 [Permalink]
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This from the LA Times does not speak about a debate on the grey area of imminent attack, but I can't get the whole article, so it may say so later:
| But supporters of the Bush administration say the U.N. resolutions set out the demands that Iraq had to meet, and thus justify a military response for its failure to comply. "Resolution 687 [calling for Iraq to rid itself of chemical and biological weapons] gives you plenty of legal authority to go into Iraq," said Yale University law professor Ruth Wedgwood. She also said the U.S. had never taken the rigid view that it could not take military action without the approval of the Security Council. In 1999, the U.S. undertook a bombing campaign in Yugoslavia's Kosovo province with NATO, but not U.N., approval, she said. |
"Never taken the rigid view" except to sign onto the U.N. Charter and other treaties.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:04:09 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | No, I can't help you, because it's not my viewpoint. Don't mistake my comments for agreement with the Bush administration. |
But he wasn't asking for your opinion. He was asking for sources to back up your claim that the legality of the Iraq is apparently unclear to the U.N. and legal scholars. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/12/2007 10:04:35 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:21:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dave wrote: | No, I can't help you, because it's not my viewpoint. Don't mistake my comments for agreement with the Bush administration. |
But he wasn't asking for your opinion. He was asking for sources to back up your claim that the legality of the Iraq is apparently unclear to the U.N. and legal scholars.
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And on what basis. Dave seems certain that "imminent attack" is on the minds of those that say it's legal. He says that is the gray area.
I think the con men that are trying to justify the crimes of the Bush administration who call themselves "legal scholars" are saying things about loopholes in the resolutions which would allow the U.S. to take matters into their own hands. Matters that everyone involved knew had nothing to do with reality.
Or, that's what I can ascertain so far without Dave's or Dude's help. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:41:15 [Permalink]
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From Gorgo's earlier post:Originally quoted by Gorgo
However there remains some debate about how "imminent" a threat has to be, and how large. |
Why, again, should I have to supply sources when Gorgo has already done so? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:46:29 [Permalink]
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Actually, George Bush himself said it was not about imminent attack, as my sources show. Please provide some information, Dave. You say this isn't your viewpoint that you have this viewpoint? Please explain.
My sources say nothing about the Iraq war being legal because of the "grey area" of imminent attack. Please help with information. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/12/2007 10:47:09 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:55:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Once again, your opinion is in error, and is in itself rude and hostile. |
If a simple disagreement in opinions is, in your opinion Gorgo, "rude and hostile," then yes, the SFN will continue to be a rude and hostile place for you. So you can learn to live with it, or you may leave. Furthermore, if my opinion that you have been rude and hostile is in itself rude and hostile, then you are knowingly being rude and hostile in return, and deserve another warning. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 11:01:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Once again, your opinion is in error, and is in itself rude and hostile. |
If a simple disagreement in opinions is, in your opinion Gorgo, "rude and hostile," then yes, the SFN will continue to be a rude and hostile place for you. So you can learn to live with it, or you may leave. Furthermore, if my opinion that you have been rude and hostile is in itself rude and hostile, then you are knowingly being rude and hostile in return, and deserve another warning.
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I said in a PM that I wasn't going to argue or explain the point. I'm simply stating my disagreement in public, as you've chided me in public. If you wish to make it a big thing, I suggest you take it to PM's and leave this thread to people who wish to try to learn, and try to back up their statements. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 11:03:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
My sources say nothing about the Iraq war being legal because of the "grey area" of imminent attack. Please help with information. |
I'm not saying it's legal because of some grey area, either. You, Gorgo, provided me with all the information I used to come to the conclusion that "the war in Iraq is illegal" is not itself a rock-solid, slam-dunk, no-room-for-dissent legal conclusion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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