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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 12/19/2007 : 00:14:54
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that can do 0-60 in 4sec, has a 245 mile range on one charge, and costs 2c a mile to operate.
Pretty slick.
$105K with all the options.
Maybe they will eventually have a more affordable version, because if they are even close to honest with their claims I'd buy a $20k model the next time I am looking for a new vehicle.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 01:07:49 [Permalink]
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| "Teslamotors"? I admit, I'm leery of the name...hopefully it's unjustified. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 09:00:02 [Permalink]
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0 to 60 in under 4 seconds is believable since electric motors, like steam engines, essentially make maximum torque at zero RPM. The number I question is the 245 mile range. At continuous highway speeds I'd bet it's considerably less than that. Recharge time and battery replacement costs are also major issues with pure electrics.
But it looks good, although maybe not $105K worth. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 11:30:31 [Permalink]
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Add another $8,000 if you live more than 100 miles from one of six major metropolitan areas as a service fee.
The base price is only $98,000. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 11:43:59 [Permalink]
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| This is a car I'd love to have... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Risendemonx
New Member
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 13:30:23 [Permalink]
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| It really is a beutiful piece of machinery- I'll be interested in seeing what comes of it! |
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move."
--
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 19:32:22 [Permalink]
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As an avid electric vehicle owner (I ride a moped-like electric scooter), I've been following Tesla Motors for a while. They seem, to me, to be legit -- in a field in which there are many vaporous projects.
One thing Tesla's spokesman said were words to the effect that if GM sold 10,000 electric cars, the project would be a failure, but if Tesla sold just a few thousand at their high price, they would have a great success. He also mentioned an intention to venture into making more moderately priced cars if the luxury models were a success.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 20:40:42 [Permalink]
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I also have followed Tesla closely for several years. It appears that they will be quite successful with their initial product, a medium priced sports car. They completely sold out their 2008 production estimate, and now are requiring a $5000 deposit to be put on the waiting list for the 2009 model. I am one of the waiters. I felt that the initial production year of 400 units would show up most of the major bugs, and the second year would be somewhat dependable. We'll see.
I feel the sports car is going to be a ongoing success and will hold its value well, due to the real lack of all-electrics. I anticipate that the first several years production will undoubtedly become collector items in five or ten years as the all-electric market develops, worth two to three times their initial cost. I am buying one as much as an investment as as a means of transportation. Also, there is that matter of 0-60 in under 4 seconds!
The real problem with their planned second model, coded Whitestar, selling at about 70K; and the third model, Bluestar, at 30 to 40K, is the power supply. If the cars become popular and are produced in any quantity, they can go into use at a rate that quickly outstrips the ability of the existing US power grids to supply.
Tesla is anticipating this problem with solar panel kits that can be used to charge the car, but major problems remain for long distance travel involving thousands, ultimately million of cars. If the all-electric ever becomes fully viable as a transportation vehicle, the electric utility industry of this country will have to be enormously expanded -- and this will take many years! This will undoubtedly be addressed by the oil industry, leading full circle to the situation we had in the early years of the 20th century, when oil companies owned most of the countries utility companies. Anti-trust legislation ended that in the 30's and 40's. What will happen in this century is anyone's guess!
GM's Chevrolet Volt may circumvent this problem.
It is an all-electric with a small onboard gasoline power plant driving a generator that charges the battery pack either while running or stopped. In full time basic transportation use, GM estimates that the Volt will get about 150 miles to the gallon. The production version has already been shown at several major auto shows. It will be available in late 2009 or early 2010 (probably around 30K), and barring major glitches, this type of hybrid will very likely be the most successful seque' from gasoline to electric propulsion. Many Japanese versions of this type of hybrid are in the works.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 22:54:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
If the cars become popular and are produced in any quantity, they can go into use at a rate that quickly outstrips the ability of the existing US power grids to supply.
Tesla is anticipating this problem with solar panel kits that can be used to charge the car, but major problems remain for long distance travel involving thousands, ultimately million of cars. If the all-electric ever becomes fully viable as a transportation vehicle, the electric utility industry of this country will have to be enormously expanded -- and this will take many years! |
This part is where we need to start talking numbers, and something isn't adding up.
At the optimistic one-cent-per-mile rate, a full charge is $2.45 of electricity. At the national average 9.4752 cents per kilowatt-hour, that's a little less than 26 kilowatt-hours (we'll bump up for inefficiencies). If our hypothetical driver has a 122.5-mile commute every business day (245 miles round trip), that means an average of 576 kWh per month. That's a full 20% of my home's peak summer electricity usage!
Of course, the average commute is just 20 miles, which would work out to about 94 kWh per month, which would be about 3.5% of my highest-consuming month (and about 10% of my smallest usage in the last year). This doesn't seem to warrant "enormous" expansion, maybe (I don't know how average my usage is).
But what's really bugging me is how house current can deliver 26 kWh of power in just 3.5 hours. If I'm not mistaken, the car is going to draw nearly 7,500 watts while charging, and the most that the circuit powering my central air conditioner can deliver is about 4,800 watts. 7,500 watts is 240 volts at 31.25 amps!
Does everyone who buys one of these cars have one of these massive circuits installed in the garage or what? (It must be in the garage, 'cause playing with that sort of power in the rain spells disaster.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 01:25:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Does everyone who buys one of these cars have one of these massive circuits installed in the garage or what? (It must be in the garage, 'cause playing with that sort of power in the rain spells disaster.)
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As this Tesla Motors blog post is asking what the biggest EV charging circuit that could be installed in your house is, it seems that they do install a fairly large circuit. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 11:35:12 [Permalink]
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From the comments in that blog post:Martin says: This is exactly how our charging system is designed: The installer sets a switch inside the home charging system that reflects the maximum charging rate allowed in the particular installation. Also, the car can already be programmed to begin charging at a given time, to take advantage of time-of-use charging and just to be a good citizen. It seems the manufacturer is wondering how many homes can support a 70-amp charging system. It also appears that most people only have 100-amp service to their homes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 01:21:42 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Your point is well taken and basically true. Tesla will offer a 110 volt system which will take much longer to charge the car. I get the feeling that Tesla looks at it sort of like JP Morgan when he said about his yacht, "If you need to ask how much it cost, you can't afford one"
Most customers who can afford a $115,000 (approximately, with tax and shipping or transportation to pick up) SPORTS CAR will spend another 10K to 15K for the necessary circuitry to charge the car, including 50 amp 240 V service necessary for the Tesla, the dryer, the range and maybe the water heater. And, with gas certain to hit $4 a gallon soon, every 245 mile trip in your Tesla only costs $2.45 as compared to $40 for your SUV - a savings of $38 dollars or so. The average driver will save $1500 to $2000 a year in gas costs. It'll pay for the charging system in seven or eight years, but by that time he'll probably need new, state-of-the-art equipment for his 2016 Tesla! (I say HE because no woman would be stupid enough to buy a 2009 Tesla!
When calculating the drain that millions of electric cars would place on the nation's power grids, even a ten percent increase in total national capacity within a few years means a hell of a lot of new power plants.
However, the "enormous" expansion that I referred to would primarily be in the distribution infrastructure necessary to deliver high-amperage 240 V service to millions of homes and businesses that currently only have low amperage 220 or 240 volt service. Some with only 115 V service now.
In addition to more high voltage transmission lines, there are substations by the thousands and neighborhood transformers and distribution systems by the millions that will have to be built or beefed up.
Home and business solar and wind (where practical) generation will reduce some of this load; and it needs to be said that the huge power demands will primarily be in the evening hours, when demand loads on the grids are lowest.
All in all, however, there is a really big revolution coming in the electric power generation and distribution industry, and it is my guess that the barbarians at the gates are the giant oil companies. I would suggest that an excellent investment right now would be in small cap utility stocks that are going to soar when Big Oil smells the beginning of the end of petrofuels for highway transportation, and the end of the beginning of electric power for automobiles - and starts to buy every power utility they can get their hands on! I am already buying utility stocks, as we speak. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 11:07:40 [Permalink]
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| In terms of automotive aesthetics alone, it looks like it costs 20K (ok 30K new). Used 10K. It looks to me like a nice little roadster by Toyota. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 12:21:54 [Permalink]
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Any of you futurists out there, consider this: If my speculation turns out to be correct that the oil industry is going to become deeply involved in the production and distribution of electric power in the years to come; the first efforts that Big Oil will make will be to convert the utility industry to the primary use of fuel oil and natural gas; as opposed to the current mix of oil, gas, coal (now primary), hydroelectric, nuclear, and miscellaneous solar and wind sources.
If this scenario does actually develop in the next decade or two, one would imagine that it would be a good thing in one respect; at least from the standpoint of the consolidation of CO2 generation sources ----from millions of vehicles running all over the place, into a relatively few thousand power plants, nailed down in place and presumably easier to control as regards emissions.
But greed being what it is, I would wager that as Big Oil becomes Big Electricity, the industry will first attempt to continue to dump CO2 into the atmosphere. With the growing awareness of the very real problem of Global Warming, there is the probability that our government will no longer be controlled by those who favor increasing hydrocarbon combustion pollution (i.e. the Bush Bunch). Big Oil/Electricity's dog won't hunt, in this field. Federal oversight and regulation of the industry will demand much better behavior than smokestack dumping, and CO2 control will become mandatory.
So what to do with these gigantic quantities of CO2 (and the various other noxious byproducts of hydrocarbon conversion)? It will no longer be emitted by hundreds of millions of moving and highly dispersed cars and trucks; but now will be restricted to much fewer, but much larger site sources. Still, it remains a vast amount of dangerous, even lethal, substance - (I am sure that readers here understand that CO2 is not, in itself, poisonous - only as it replaces life supporting oxygen and is not life supporting in and of itself) - and it will continue to be produced and must be kept out of the atmosphere.
Only when nuclear, hydro, bio, wind, and solar power sources and fuels are dominant will this problem reduce to manageable proportions. Depending upon the success of the oil cartel in manipulating our government, that may be a very long time indeed!
Certainly the gigantic petroleum power bloc will fight to the bitter end to continue to produce the nation's energy from hydrocarbons. The combined vested interests of oil production, processing, and product distribution is possibly the world's largest infrastructure devoted to a single substance and its products, that exists! Big money, big power, and big corruption here! They won't give up, and they will probably win, at least in the short term - 10 to 30 years. They have run this country for the last eight years and those roots go deep!
To my knowledge, which is meager in this area, it is not feasible to break CO2 down into it's useful components of oxygen and carbon. It is kind of like the inevitable radioactive byproducts - waste - of fission reaction nuclear power production, requiring long term burial in the lucky state of Nevada.
So do we bury or drown it? Those solutions bring visions of eventually effervescent oceans and Yellowstone geysers reaching unprecedented heights as the bubbles seek to go home! Seven-up from Old Faithful? Who knows? There is also the very slim possibility of launching it into space. Surely you've heard of carbon dioxide rockets?
Actually, it has been suggested that highly compressed CO2 (liquid or solid state - dry ice) - might be utilized as a powersource itself. There has already been extensive experimentation with compressed air as an energy storage medium, as in the air car! As always, there is the problem that the energy it takes to compress the air (or CO2) is greater than the kinetic energy stored in the compressed product. And most importantly, using compressed CO2 for energy storage would be pretty stupid as it reverts back to gaseous form and escapes into the atmosphere after releasing it's compression energy. No net carbon footprint gain there!
So, how do you the people, prevent the takeover of the electric power industry by Cheney and Company? And, failing that, how do you force the real Powers That Be to responsibly dispose of or productively utilize their CO2 production?
Questions for you kids who will grow to your maturity and continue to vote for policy in the coming energy-revolutionized world!
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 12/22/2007 15:34:55 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 18:00:07 [Permalink]
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The very fact that we are now being presented with practical questions about how we'll recharge electric cars is a great sign in itself. It's like the problem of finding a suitable berth, after accomplishing the lifetime goal of owning a yacht.
The electric car never got quite this far before. Hopefully a better battery (or battery substitute, such as hydrogen, advanced flywheel technology, or super-capacitors) will come along, but Lithium-Ion technology is pretty close to what is needed, and may soon be improved enough to compete with the gasoline ICE across the board -- as in long range driving without having to burn fuel to recharge on the fly.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/22/2007 18:00:54 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2007 : 02:28:10 [Permalink]
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Like Mooner, I have been following Tesla motors of and on since they began. In this neck of the woods (Alberta), nearly any incremental electricity is going to come from coal since it is so abundant here. On the bright side, there is a serious proposal to build 2 nuclear reactors near Peace River that hasn't run into too much opposition yet.
Burning fossil fuel at a power station does offer the possibility of sequestration, something that is impossible with the ICE. A week or so ago, I heard a radio interview with one of IPCC scientists from the mitigation group regarding sequestration. He was with the Alberta Energy and Utility Board (The provincial regulatory body for the Oil and Gas industry among other things) and his specialty was underground storage of CO2. Depleted oil and gas reservoirs offer a good place to store CO2, however, compression will require a significant amount of energy. There is already a coal fired powerplant (in North Dakota if I remember correctly) supplying CO2 to a CO2 flood in an oil field in either Saskatchewan or Manitoba.
It will take a hell of a lot of solar panels to charge a Tesla. In these parts a wind generator might be a better option. I bet Mooner could reduce the carbon footprint of his transportation to zero with such a setup, maybe even with solar.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Electric car
