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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 13:28:33 [Permalink]
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Smurf and Ricky.....
Sorry to have missed this titillating thread earlier, but I have to make a remark or two. I am qualified, as I have owned and operated seven restaurants in my speckled career, and I know a bit about cooking and eating, having traveled largely for my palate's sake to many corners of the world and even more regions and cities of the United States.
I am what is referred to as a "gourmand" and a gourmet, although I agree with you that such terms are highly pretentious. I wrote restaurant reviews in Denver many years ago as a sideline, and I contribute to the Zagat Guide everytime they do one in an area I live in or travel to repeatedly. Zagat, incidentally, is the only restaurant guide in the US worth spending money for! Look it up on wiki.
You folks are dead-on when it comes to the phony elitism in the wine industry. Most of all this shit was concocted back in the fifties when the California wine industry was first just getting going. It was the work of West Coast flacks, P-R and advertising firms to boost their client's product in competition with French wines, which had dominated the market for centuries.
Well, it worked! Many California wines are now "rated" higher than their French counterparts. Little wonder, the grape stock for all of the infant California wine business was imported from France, and later from Italy and Spain. The growing climate and soil in Sonoma and the surrounding "wine country" in northern California is very similar to the classic wine areas of France, and with the imported skills of the Europeans in winemaking, a giant American industry was born!
All of the crap about "bouquet, warmth, hints of this and that, flavors of anise and cinnamon, etc., etc.,etc., is just that - pure BULLSHIT! Wine is wine period, and anise, cinnamon, honeysuckle, and quassin, for that matter, are emphatically NOT used in making real wine. It is the fermentation, filtration, and ageing of the juice and skin of wine grapes, period! Any other flavor than that of partially to fully fermented grapes (of numerous varieties) is added contamination!
This is not to say that there are not many degrees of quality in wines. There emphatically are! Wine, like many things, is an acquired taste, and many do not possess it. Those with a trained palate and love of good wine can certainly tell differences in quality in different wines and do so blindfolded and earmuffed. (But not with their noses blocked - odor is essential to discrimatory taste.)
Suffice to say that there are good wines and poor wines, and a few really lousy wines. They usually differ in price according to their quality, but by all means not always! Almost all wines over $10 a bottle are a rip-off, and if you pay $20 to $50 a bottle in a liquor store, somebody in the manufacuring-to-marketing chain is getting rich at your expense. $100+ wines are preposterous!
With respect to food, Ricky, you are either extremely naive or extremely unsophisticated:| I agree with BPS's post, but to a much greater extent. What he said applies to all foods. Now granted, ground beef will never taste like fillet mignon. However, many people are so particular about the food they buy, when in reality there is little if any discernible difference. And even if there is a difference, it's not that one is better than the other, it's just that they are in fact different |
Ground beef will taste very much like filet (one t, please) mignon if it is ground from beef tenderloin. The slight difference in perceived taste is due to the texture difference and the quantity of juice (blood) in the portion!
There are enormous differences in raw unprocessed food qualities! From your supermarket try Chilean raspberries in the winter compared to California raspberries in the summer! Or Mexican watermelon compared to those from Texas! I could go on all week about the very real differences in raw food quality - in fruits, vegetables, meat, fish, poultry, wildbird, shellfish, crustaceans....endless! Quality differences ranging from terrible to fantastic! And a very wide price range as well, Usually, you get what you pay for. Defining quality differences as related to wholesale prices are essential buying skills for success in the restaurant business. Important for good meals at home, too.
And as to food preparation, I have been cooking for over fifty years. Seriously cooking! I learned from cooks and chefs that I hired in my own restarants. Since I have retired, almost thirty years, I have done almost all of the cooking in our home and I have mastered the basics of many cuisines. And even if you have never in your life dined anywhere but McDonalds or KFC and have had no exposure at all to higher levels of cuisine, I could cook you any one of fifty dishes that you would say was one of the most delicious meals you ever had. Either that, or you have severely impaired gustatory organs.
Now all this may sound like the pretentious croakings of an old pufftoad or some kind of senile ego trip to you. But I am as knowledgable about food and cooking as Marf is about art. That's a lot! It has been a major passion of mine for almost all of my life. And that's a long time!
Ricky, or anyone, if you have a problem with anything that I have said here, speak up! I would love to talk food and wine with anyone that has opinions like Ricky's.....| when in reality there is little if any discernible difference. And even if there is a difference, it's not that one is better than the other, it's just that they are in fact different. |
..... and would like to defend such erroneous opinions.
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 01/04/2008 20:18:35 |
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recurve boy
Skeptic Friend
Australia
53 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2008 : 17:55:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
With respect to food, Ricky, you are either extremely naive or extremely unsophisticated:| I agree with BPS's post, but to a much greater extent. What he said applies to all foods. Now granted, ground beef will never taste like fillet mignon. However, many people are so particular about the food they buy, when in reality there is little if any discernible difference. And even if there is a difference, it's not that one is better than the other, it's just that they are in fact different |
Ground beef will taste very much like filet (one t, please) mignon if it is ground from beef tenderloin. The slight difference in perceived taste is due to the texture difference and the quantity of juice (blood) in the portion!
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Isn't that sort of the point though? You'd never form ground beef into little steak shaped patties and use it for steak because the physical properties of an actual cut of meat are in fact more desirable. And you probably wouldn't use a prime cut, grind it down and use it for hamburgers since it wouldn't make any difference and you just wasted a really good steak. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2008 : 19:01:15 [Permalink]
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One of my pet peeves is cold food that was intended to be served hot. Another is motormouth sports announcers; why can't they just shut the fuck up and let us enjoy the race/match/game?
On those occasions when I watch sports, mainly NASCAR, I do most of it with the sound muted and a little music on the sterio.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 20:08:48 [Permalink]
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recurve.....
You said:
| Isn't that sort of the point though? You'd never form ground beef into little steak shaped patties and use it for steak because the physical properties of an actual cut of meat are in fact more desirable. |
Sorry, Recurve, the dish you describe as "you'd never form" is called Salisbury Steak and has been extensively served in the United States for many, many years. It is a staple item in many mid-class restaurants, particularly in the South, and across this country! If it is well made, it is of a better grade of beef than the Hamburger Steak.
The Hamburger Steak is even more omnipresent on American menus. You can find it in practically any sit-down fast food or truck stop restaurant in the U.S. Literally millions are served every day!
| And you probably wouldn't use a prime cut, grind it down and use it for hamburgers since it wouldn't make any difference and you just wasted a really good steak. |
Not necessarily, recurve!
There is a chain of fancy hamburger joints in California called Steakburger©. They advertise that they (and in fact, do) make all of their ground meat out of true steak cuts - sirloin, tenderloin and round. I suspect that the round steak predominates in their ground meat mix because it is far less expensive than the other true steak cuts. Nonetheless, they are making and serving hamburger made out of steak! Many high end restaurants serve expensive hamburger sandwiches made out of steak meat, and Steak Tartare is a common dish in expensive dinner houses. It consists of a mound of fresh ground tenderloin, served raw with sides of chopped hard boiled eggs, capers, and other condiments. See Hamburger wiki for a more complete description of this German originated but American promoted food phenomenon!
Tenderloin does not make a very good hamburger because, with the exception of USDA Prime Beef, tenderloin does not contain much fat (beef tallow) which contributes much of the taste of beef. But a burger made with good marbled sirloin, is a very good hamburger, indeed. With sufficient fat, it rivals the very best tasting Hamburger.
Probably the very best tasting Hamburger is made from chopped, not ground,'chuck' (a cut of beef, not a small animal) with a natural fat content of 22% to 25%. This type of hamburger is very high in cholesterol, trans fat and unsaturated fats and is one of the primary reasons that far too many folks in the U.S. are overweight and have heart (coronary artery) disease! The Big Mac Heart Attack is very real! If you visit the States, you will find that meat eating in the U.S. is an entirely different phenomenon than it is in practically any other country in the world, with the possible exception of Argentina! You folks in Australia are probably far better off if you don't import too much of this life-style, although I realize the U.S. fast food joints dot the landscape Down Under, as they do in most of the rest of the world!
God, I love to talk about food! It isn't even fattening!
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 01/05/2008 10:10:43 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 16:52:02 [Permalink]
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| Man I had no idea I wasnt alone, sniffle. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 18:28:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
I prefer the natural essence of spaghetti freshly harvested... |
You don't know pasta until you've tasted the noodles clipped from an elbow macaroni bush grown in your own kitchen. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 20:03:12 [Permalink]
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With the proliferation of micro brews and high gravity beers I wonder if it is possible to become a beer snob. Personally, I believe that I have tried well over 400 different beers. I guess I'm just a big fan of water, barley, malts, hops, yeast, and just about anything you want to add. Such as coffee, chocolate, molasses, dark fruit, spices, etc...
Hell, I like beer, most styles. If you want a coors light or light anything I believe I can provide you a refill in just a few minutes. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 23:13:57 [Permalink]
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Chippewa.....
You damn Native Americans should go back to your tees and pee! What do you know of organic homegrown couscous or field fresh Korean kim chee? Nothing! Your pathetic pretensions to culinary expertise are shown to be inconsequential when you really can not speak of the joys of tending a tofu garden or harvesting ripe mexican rellenos from your own eggplant tree!
And you speak of the Swiss pasta crop! Hah! What do you know of the morel maltagliati grown underground in the Australian outback? Nothing, nothing, nothing. Only plebian Swiss field pasta or even more pedestrian home grown spaghetti. Primitive pagan peasants! Ignorant savages! Humpff! Snifffff! |
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recurve boy
Skeptic Friend
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 01:34:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Sorry, Recurve, the dish you describe as "you'd never form" is called Salisbury Steak and has been extensively served in the United States for many, many years. It is a staple item in many mid-class restaurants, particularly in the South, and across this country! If it is well made, it is of a better grade of beef than the Hamburger Steak.
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Hah! I stand corrected. I've heard of Salisbury Steak, but I never knew what it was. It sounds kindy meatloafy.
| There is a chain of fancy hamburger joints in California called Steakburger©. They advertise that they (and in fact, do) make all of their ground meat out of true steak cuts - sirloin, tenderloin and round. I suspect that the round steak predominates in their ground meat mix because it is far less expensive than the other true steak cuts. Nonetheless, they are making and serving hamburger made out of steak! Many high end restaurants serve expensive hamburger sandwiches made out of steak meat, |
I wonder if this makes any difference though? I reckon it won't ...
| Steak Tartare is a common dish in expensive dinner houses. |
Lapse in my memory, I have had this before. It was quite good.
| Probably the very best tasting Hamburger is made from chopped, not ground,'chuck' (a cut of beef, not a small animal) with a natural fat content of 22% to 25%. This type of hamburger is very high in cholesterol, trans fat and unsaturated fats and is one of the primary reasons that far too many folks in the U.S. are overweight and have heart (coronary artery) disease!ood! |
Yep, I'll agree here. I think you need the fat content in cooked "ground meat" foods. Which is why I think you shouldn't use better cuts since I find they tend to be leaner.
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recurve boy
Skeptic Friend
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 01:55:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
With the proliferation of micro brews and high gravity beers I wonder if it is possible to become a beer snob. Personally, I believe that I have tried well over 400 different beers. I guess I'm just a big fan of water, barley, malts, hops, yeast, and just about anything you want to add. Such as coffee, chocolate, molasses, dark fruit, spices, etc...
Hell, I like beer, most styles. If you want a coors light or light anything I believe I can provide you a refill in just a few minutes.
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Of course it is! I started becoming snobby with my beer after I tried (quite a few) belgian beers. The better beers are really interesting to taste. Th really bad beers are really quite boring and are only palatable when really cold.
I have also developed into a coffee snob. Considering how much coffee I drink in a week, it actually turns out cheaper to have my own expresso machine and grinders and the coffee is better. There's a peeve, getting a latte or flat white that is so "watered" down that there is no more coffee taste. And those coffee drinks with crap loads of chocolate and whipped cream and stuff.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 09:36:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Chippewa.....Your pathetic pretensions to culinary expertise are shown to be inconsequential when you really can not speak of the joys of tending a tofu garden or harvesting ripe mexican rellenos from your own eggplant tree! And you speak of the Swiss pasta crop! Hah!...Primitive pagan peasants! Ignorant savages! Humpff! Snifffff! |
Well we may not follow every culinary fad but we did manage to harvest the first relleno crop which we then battered and fried then sold to the conquistadors as a snack food that is now served at many of our multi-million dollar gambling casinos. Pardon me, I have to park my Maserati.  |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 12:00:46 [Permalink]
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I respectfully disagree as well. Drinking alcoholic beverages doesn't only have to be a means to a drunken end. Yes, the effect of even a moderate amount of alochol is obvious a desired part of the experience, but I have opted to remain sober and certain parties that only served alcohol that I found distasteful to my palate.
As far as the comment about wine drinkers thinking they are more sophisticated as beer drinkers go - what, so beer drinkers don't have our own snobbery? Ahem, the parties where I've refrained from drinking were the ones that had crappy beer. But I love good beer and will usually drink good beer over good wine, again, because I prefer the taste. And that's just it - the issue is taste. My parents love wine and go wine tasting for fun all the time, and my father has learned that he can't find a bottle under $50.00 that can compete with his $10.00 favorites. A friend of mine recently acquired a $200.00 bottle of Highland scotch, and to my surprise, I found that I preferred my $22. bottle of Bowmore simply because, even though the pricier one was definitely smoother, I prefer the flavor of Islays to that of Highlands. How wonderful is it that we can more deeply enjoy such a mundane activity as recreational drinking by learning to appreciate complex subtleties of flavor? At least I think that's a pretty awesome thing. Viva la snobs!
Dr. Mabuse wrote: | I've found that there's Whiskey, and then there's Islay Whisky. Notably: Bowmoore and Laphroaig. I haven't tried Lagavulin. |
Oh, you should! It is so worth the cost. And add Caol Ila to your list of Islay scotches to try. It was also really wonderful. Also, Talisker isn't technically an Ila, but the water from the island it is made on has the same peaty flavor, and I haven't met an Islay drinker who didn't enjoy Talisker. Plus it is quite a bit cheaper than Lagavulin. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/06/2008 12:12:14 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 12:09:01 [Permalink]
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bngbuck wrote: | All of the crap about "bouquet, warmth, hints of this and that, flavors of anise and cinnamon, etc., etc.,etc., is just that - pure BULLSHIT! Wine is wine period, and anise, cinnamon, honeysuckle, and quassin, for that matter, are emphatically NOT used in making real wine. It is the fermentation, filtration, and ageing of the juice and skin of wine grapes, period! |
With all due respect, however, anyone who goes to wine tastings who actually thinks those things are used in the recipe is going to sorely embarrass themselves. Any serious wine-goer knows this, and those descriptive words aren't meant to intentionally fool anyone. They really are just descriptions.
The thing that is bs to me in all this gourmet "the best" stuff isn't the descriptions of the stuff dubbed "better". The bs is people thinking that they should like it better than "lower quality" stuff or just pretending that they do. Taste is truly subjective, so it makes no sense that everyone would prefer the more expensive more refined versions of every food and drink. When I go wine tasting with my parents and brother, the three of them really do usually prefer the more expensive, refined stuff. I myself can taste what they are talking about in the descriptions, but I always end up preferring the cheaper red table wine blends. They like to rip on me about it, and that is the bullshit and I call them on it. People like what they like, period. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 01/06/2008 12:10:45 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 18:54:15 [Permalink]
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One of mine is people who think "DDD" on a compact disc is always "better" than any analog master.
The "Spars code" on compact discs contains a sequence of three letters, using either "A" or "D." The "A" stands for analog source, the "D" for digital. The first letter in the sequence tells you how the album was originally recorded; the second, how it was mixed; the third, how it was finally mastered.
Hence, a Spars code that reads "AAD" tells you the album was recorded and mixed on analog (i.e., magnetic tape) equipment, but mastered digitally; "ADD" tells you it was recorded on analog, but mixed and mastered digitally; "DDD" tells you it was recorded, mixed and mastered on digital equipment.
As for DDD vs. ADD recordings, in the broad sense, there is no difference in terms of quality. Many people want to believe that "DDD" is always "better" because it is digital and therefore newer technology but actually DDD and ADD are both digital recordings and the latter is created from an analog master. If the original masters, as well as the recording techniques are excellent, the sound quality will be excellent as well. This is further enhanced by a good home sound system. Some classical and jazz masters from the 1950s are superb when remastered in digital even though they are "ADD".
Another thing - generally, the selling prices of standard CDs have no relation to sound quality. Low-priced CDs can sound every bit as good as full-priced CDs. The prices are dependent on the original cost from the manufacturer as well as licensing, import and other costs. Audiophile recordings (ADD or DDD) as well as Hybrid SuperAudio can be priced by a given record label from budget through more expensive.
Historic recordings reissued on CD; (i.e. mono recordings from the 1920s through early 1950s,) are valued for the quality of the performance and can vary greatly in sound quality depending on the master tape or record. 78 rpm mono recordings reissued on CD will sound like records of that era but sometimes remastered with remarkable clarity. Solo instruments, for example a piano in mono sound, can sometimes sound quite good.
Nevertheless I meet folks from time to time who will only collect "DDD" and more recently, only "SACD", thereby missing out on a lot of great music.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Everything is overrated, what bugs you?
