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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 12/25/2007 : 13:50:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
Only I am not a big blues fan either. nor an Aretha Franklin fan. Doesn't pump my nads. How about some electronica? I don't get the insistance that I must appreciate things that are even remotely based on Gospel or whatever. You're reaching. Don't try to force it into a hole it won't fit into.
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Where did you get the idea that I care about what you like? I was trying to make the point that much of our art can be traced back to, ohhhhhh, never mind... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 13:55:54 [Permalink]
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You must have forgotten when you said this:
| Sure. But hey, if you enjoy a song like “Respect” by Aretha Franklin, you are basically hearing a gospel song with pop lyrics. |
What was I supposed to think?
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 14:02:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
You must have forgotten when you said this:
| Sure. But hey, if you enjoy a song like “Respect” by Aretha Franklin, you are basically hearing a gospel song with pop lyrics. |
What was I supposed to think?
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The key word was if. That was the qualifier.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 18:10:04 [Permalink]
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Interesting thread...
But, I'll have to go with Kil on this one. There's nothing we can do about what already happenned except learn from it. Art reflects the culture of the time. It tells us things about the people that we can't always get from recorded histories.
Additionally, art is entertaining, even classical art. One person's self-expression is another's entertainment. We don't necessarily study a classical painting, listen to a Gospel song or even marvel at architecture because we want to help the world -- The artist may. While our motives for patronizing art may differ, all art is essentially entertainment. It occupies our mind, it gives us pleasure, it can even teach us, and that's entertainment.
Let's hope we get something worthwhile out of it.
Oh, and Kil, thanks for the video. The Weight is one of my favorites. It brought back a lot of memories from thirty years ago, and I've always loved Mavis Staples' voice. I think I'll buy the DVD after the holidays.
On the original intent of Marf's post, I'm happy to see that this obvious attempt of Christians to present themselves as minorities and victims of the vast and powerful secular left is losing its appeal among the general population. I'm not even sure exactly why the press ran with it so much over the past couple of years. Maybe some heavy hitters in DC were pulling the strings? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 19:35:48 [Permalink]
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I don't see why both points of view can't be legitimate. Many great paintings are both great art and religious propaganda. A person may enjoy them for the first reason and condemn them for the latter. It's the same reason why Birth of a Nation can be considered both a monumental contribution to cinema and an ugly example of naked racism. There is no inherent contradiction there.
I disagree with the view that secularists must simply accept religiously themed art as is, without criticism of the religious elements, or risk ruining the experience for others. That's absurd. Even more so if people still use the art as propaganda. If the propaganda elements still work, still put bodies in pews, then attempting to gloss over overt religious themes without criticism is equivalent to tacit endorsement of those themes--something I find unconscionable.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/25/2007 19:43:08 |
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recurve boy
Skeptic Friend
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 19:50:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by GorgoI don't know why you have a problem with that.
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Well, I have a problem with it because it's very, very sad that once a religious theme is present, you seem to just dismiss the work in it's entirety when there is so much more to it. At least that is what I gather. Worse, I get the sense that you don't even want to try to see what other people are on about, you'd rather lament over what could have been done (which could be absolutely nothing). I'd be very frustrated with you too.
Oh well!
Merry Chirstmas!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 21:43:37 [Permalink]
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I think H.H. has summarized the issue well.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 00:58:35 [Permalink]
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| Well, you are basically hearing a gospel song with pop lyrics whether you like "Respect" or not. |
All I can say to that is "So What?" Why does this mean I'm ignorant if I don't like it? Wasn't that what we were talking about? I saw Kil sliding that statement in there as somehow related becaue of the context and still don't see how it supports that idea.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 03:27:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I don't see why both points of view can't be legitimate. |
Thank you for stating it better than I could. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 03:44:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, you are basically hearing a gospel song with pop lyrics whether you like "Respect" or not.
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Can we really separate influences so well? Contemporary Gospel is influenced by Hip-Hop and the Mahalia Jackson style Black Gospel that we know about is influenced by the Blues, which was influenced by Gospel, which was influenced by folk music and spirituals, which influenced other things. Again, this is not a rhetorical question, I really don't know. Do experts really agree on this question completely?
I mean, what you are saying seems almost like music would not exist without religion, therefore the music we like comes from religion. I think music comes from people, and a lot of people tend to be religious, so yes, a lot of music is influenced by the music that came before it, a lot of which (not all of which) is religious. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/26/2007 03:46:46 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 08:35:52 [Permalink]
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Gorgo said:
| I think music comes from people |
Yeah, you have the cause-->effect chain correct here. People make music about things that are important to them (the Greek concept of the Muse!), and while religion has inspired some amazing music, so have beautiful women, motorcycles, cars, mountains, family, sunsets, money, oceans, and feather mattresses! (the list is immense)
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 08:57:16 [Permalink]
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Well, I have a problem with it because it's very, very sad that once a religious theme is present,
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Well, I try not to dismiss it completely, but on the other hand, are you saying that it doesn't matter what great speakers say, so long as they speak loudly enough and their sentence structure and grammar obeys all the rules?
Personally, when I see people like Pat Robertson, I tnink, "what a waste." Imagine what people like them could do if they actually tried to do something constructive.
Of course, maybe they just are so damaged that they can't.
When I see a multi-million dollar church, I do wish that money had been used for something that was constructive. That doesn't mean that the church wasn't built well. I don't pretend that it's not there. I don't wish someone would burn it. I don't "dismiss" it. I see it. Is it great art? Who cares? It's a waste of money and time.
Are there redeeming qualities of religious artwork? Fine? I'm glad to hear about them and learn more, and maybe I'll change my mind about a particular piece or a lot of pieces. I can still wish that religion wasn't there to poison it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/26/2007 08:59:44 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 09:44:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
| Well, you are basically hearing a gospel song with pop lyrics whether you like "Respect" or not. |
All I can say to that is "So What?" Why does this mean I'm ignorant if I don't like it? Wasn't that what we were talking about? I saw Kil sliding that statement in there as somehow related becaue of the context and still don't see how it supports that idea.
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I wasn't trying to demonstrate bngbuck's point exactly. I really have no idea if you have examined the cultural influences of much of our art and music. And if you haven't or don't care to, It doesn't really matter to me.
It did occur to me that many people who listen to music are not aware of where that music came from. I was elaborating on that point. I mean, some people think food comes from the supermarket and don't really think or care about the steps it took to get it there.
All in all, the art I like impacts me in some way. I don't reject any art based on any one criteria. I am just as happy listening to “Put a little Faith in Jesus” by the Stanely Brothers as I am listening to the anti religion song “Dear God” by XTC. They both have something to offer, whether it is musically, lyrically or both.
I offer no apologies for decorating my place, in part, with overtly religious objects. In fact, sometimes, that they are overtly religious is what I find attractive about them, like those rosary beads that I just brought back from Mexico.
That's all I'm saying.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 10:21:28 [Permalink]
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Matt wrote: | False claims? Art is subjective. Much of art criticism seems excessively superlative, obscure and simply unrelated to anything outside of the ivory tower. Much modern and postmodern art fails to communicate its message clearly with those outside of an inner clique of art critics. |
Yeah, and does it claim to be otherwise?
You are the one who used the Emperor's New Clothes comparison. In that story there is a claim of objective fact that is false. How is this the case with the art world?
| Actually this isn't where I think it falls down. Although the craftmanship is not always evident they are usually quite skillfully done. |
Where do you think it falls down?
| Sure, but it's not really a matter of keeping score. |
No, not score, but record. If it isn't recorded, if it isn't discussed, written about, influencing what comes next and thereby shaping the future, then it isn't going to go down in history. This is not to say that art which goes down in history is better in an objective sense, but certainly it is more collectively valued by human societies, and there are reasons for this which are for the most part observation of objective information.
| Much great art is not recognized as such in its time and faddish art tends to be largely forgotten over time even if it is hailed as great art in its day. |
Of course! This is why the stuff which does stand the test of time is regarded as "great art". It is also why people tend to think that the art the past was better and that the stuff today is decadent and of a lesser quality – because the worst stuff hasn't yet been forgotten and the best stuff elevated by the history books.
Although I should point out that modernism and postmodernism are now passed, and while they are both still fairly recent, the amount that they have been written about and the global influence on contemporary artists is such that I think it would shocking if those movements in art were forgotten a couple hundreds years from now.
| Artists don't create in a cultural vaccuum but I think there is a certain amount of self-obsessing evident in much modern and post-modern art. The culture that has been built up around art often seems disconnected from the culture of the larger society. |
This is where I heartily disagree. People in larger society do not want to look in a mirror. They want escapism and entertainment, which we have plenty of to distract from fine art. The self-obsessing in the art world reflects our selfish culture. The new Museum of Modern Art in NYC is like a monument for nihilism, where even works which deal with real human issues are drowned out by weirder, more sensationalist works, many of which deal with nothing more than a reductionist approach to aesthetic forms. There is no more romanticism, no more idealism, and humanist art (which is present in every area) is marginalized. Only a pseudo-scientific attempt to analyze pure visual experiences, which reduces works about humanity to nothing but interesting lines, shapes, colors, and textures. In my opinion, this perfectly parallels real society in America. Ignoring the real human issues because we're obsessed with entertainment and consumerism, redecorating kitchens, the latest self help book, and where to spend the summer vacation this year. The disconnect between the elites of the art world and lower classes also makes for interesting observations about the unacknowledged issue of classism in the same way the art of the Renaissance reflected the power base of that era (the church.). The art of today disgusts me, but it disgusts me in the same way that society today disgusts me. I often hate it, but I think it is culturally very significant and really great in this sense.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/26/2007 10:25:18 |
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The myth of the secularist humbug
