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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 14:16:27 [Permalink]
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Filth.....
So you're going out on a balsa wood limb and predicting that McCain is going to eventually grab the Greatly Offensive Party's brass ring?
Further yet, McCain vs. Hillary or Obama?
What's your longshot odds on a Hillary/Obama lockup before going into an open convention with potential for a major floor fight; and suddenly Gore showing up with a hell of a lot of money (hundreds of millions in backing plus his own huge fortune) and grass roots like a golf course? Possible? Wanna bet some more of that money you owe me?
Is it possible?
I buy your McCain scenario, it's the only real chance the Red Death has of infecting the country again.
But the Dem thing is real murky to me right now. There are all kinds of powerful forces pulling in many different directions. It's a cat race on a dog track! |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 18:37:31 [Permalink]
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bngbuck wrote: I'll tell you something, I've had a lot of exposure to Mormons. Utah is kind of a social extension of Colorado, but with the weirdness of the Mormon "faith" permeating everything. There's a lot of them in Colorado, including some real nutters living near the state's common border, in little kingdom towns with dozens of wives and hundreds of kids. Illegal in the Church (and the State) but there, nonetheless. One guy has eleven wives!
There's a Temple in Denver that rivals the Tabernacle in Salt Lake. I had several businesses in Denver, and dealt with quite a few high-level Mormons frequently. They are tough as nails, ruthless and merciless in business with no apparent ethics, and their screwball "Faith" infects everything they do. I am totally persuaded that Mutt would be a Mormon president. |
In the above you basically write about a lot of crazy Mormons near you that you know some bad and crazy things about, and that Romney will be a bad president, but you don't connect the two. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying that you aren't making a compelling argument to convince me that you are right. A cousin of mine is Mormon. He's a kind and hard-working person and politically liberal. He doesn't strike me as any different from other liberal Christians I know, and (like most Mormons) he only plans of marrying one woman (or at least only one at a time.) Can you put forth a compelling argument that Romney will be a bad president because of reasons connected to his Mormonism, because it sounds like you are saying he'd be a bad president just because he happens to be Mormon, and in my experience, that is bs and amounts to religious discrimination. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2008 : 18:38:22 [Permalink]
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On the Dem race, I wouldn't give odds. It's simply too close to call. But I'll hold the gelt if anyone wants to bet -- for a modest percentage, of course.
I haven't considered Hillary a shoo-in since the beginning, conventional wisdom be damned. On the other hand, I don't think she's lost anything in Iowa that she can't recoup & concievably add to elsewhere.
See, the problem is that these caucuses are held in so many diverse places. Example: Iowa is all but entirely rural, and it came as small suprise that Edwards did so well, at least partly due to a mistrust of Hillary (some 40% of Iowans describe themselves as evangelical & born again Christians). I expect him to do well in SC but am not so sure about any of 'em in FL.
And so forth.
If Gore's gonna get in, he'd better get snappin'. He'll have to build an organization almost from scratch and that takes time, a commodity that gets in shorter supply with each passing day. I'd be very suprised if he ran.
Also, there will not be a Draft Gore movement to amount to anything, if at all. Reason being that the rank & file Dems are perfectly content with their existing candidates.
Whaddya mean "money I owe you?!  It was not I who answered the gambit and I refuse to accept the responsibility for someone else's words. I merely took advantage of them, and with the clearest of conscience too.  
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 01:22:25 [Permalink]
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Marf.....
You ask:| Can you put forth a compelling argument that Romney will be a bad president because of reasons connected to his Mormonism, because it sounds like you are saying he'd be a bad president just because he happens to be Mormon, and in my experience, that is bs and amounts to religious discrimination. |
He will be a bad president because he is a self-proclaimed "highly religious" christian, and a menber of a faith that professes some of the most insane religious beliefs in the whole panoply of asinine christian theology. The Mormons are, to use Dude's term, delusional. Far beyond the standard shibboleths of Christianity, they literally worship imaginary angels and "latter day saints" of their own invention - Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other "saints" that are strictly products of their own imagination and don't even have the dubious authenticity of being shared with other christian sects.
The Mormons are a cult. Cultists are irrational. I do not want an irrational cultist to hold the power of the presidency of the United States. Anyone who can blindly accept that kind of nonsense is not capable of thinking clearly enough to handle the responsibilities of the presidency.
Also "compelling" to me is the fact that George W. Bush, arguably the worst president in the history of our country, is a fundamentalist mind-set born-again Christian who has repeatedly stated that he talks to God regularly and receives advice as to his governance. Apparently God has directed him on his blind, mindless, path of foreign intervention which has sent over 3000 American troops to an unnecessary death and horribly maimed uncounted others, to say nothing of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi casualties of his war. God has also told him to empty the treasury of the United States and spend trillions on his abominable war. This is idiocy, and one who believes he is receiving these orders from God is delusional too!
Bush was put into office by the political cohesion of like-minded Christian crazies who somehow feel that God and Christ want war, death, and insolvency to be instruments of Christian governance. Bush, among other things, is a religious nut job. So is Romney. So is Huckabee. I do not want people who are stupid enough, or gullible enough, or perhaps even manipulatable enough to allow a construct bankrupt of reason, logic, or substantive value like "Religion" - be it fundamental Christianity, Mormonism, Islam or even Orthodox Judaism - to be an essential part of the value system precepts upon which their decision-making is based!
You stated earlier:| If Huckabee wins my husband and I are applying for residency in another country. I'm not kidding. |
What, other than his fundamentalist Baptist religous fervor, makes you think Huckabee would be a bad president? That he is a Creationist? Mutt, as a Mormon, has even crazier religious views such as reverence to the "angel" Moroni. That Huckabee is a baptist minister? Mutt also has held office in his church: From wiki:| Mitt Romney is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), more commonly known as Mormons. His great-great-grandfather, Parley P. Pratt, was among the first leaders of that religion in the early 19th century. Mitt's wife Ann converted to Mormonism before they were married in 1969.[11] In addition to his missionary work in France, Romney has served as a part-time lay minister, called a bishop, and has also been a stake president in his church.[ |
My "compelling" argument is not derived only from the fact that his religion is Mormonism. That fact only strengthens it, because of the unusual irrationality of that christian sect. I am just as violently opposed to Huckabee because of his fundamentalist Baptism. He is another religious nut case, like Bush and Mutt, who puts reliance (or Faith) in a superstition called God above reliance on reason.
You are doubledamn right I am religiously discriminatory when it comes to judging the rationality and cognitive abilities of those who would hold the power of the U.S. presidency. The ignorant and the stupid of this country put Bush in power in 2000 and 2004, largely because he reflected their own intellectual and educational shortcomings. He rewarded them, and all the other folks like you and me, with the incredible mess and legacy of the ongoing morass of the Iraq war and the shambles he has made of our domestic well-being. Part, a good part, of those abysmal consequences of the man's presidency are due to his lack of intelligence, wisdom (to use a word of Dave's that I still need to quarrel with him about), and critical thinking (which we all treasure so highly here).
In my view, anyone who is deeply religious; lacks sufficient intelligence, or wisdom, or the ability to think critically, or quite possibly all three, to qualify for the enormously demanding job of the President of the United States! Mutt Romney, Mike Huckabee, and George Bush all lack enough of these qualities to be a competent President, because if they possessed enough of those qualities, they would not be deeply religious!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 06:09:41 [Permalink]
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bng said:
George W. Bush, arguably the worst president in the history of our country, is a fundamentalist mind-set born-again Christian who has repeatedly stated that he talks to God regularly and receives advice as to his governance. Apparently God has directed him on his blind, mindless, path of foreign intervention which has sent over 3000 American troops to an unnecessary death and horribly maimed uncounted others, to say nothing of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi casualties of his war. God has also told him to empty the treasury of the United States and spend trillions on his abominable war. This is idiocy, and one who believes he is receiving these orders from God is delusional too!
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I have recently come to the conclusion that W is not actually a true believer.
He uses religion as a shield against criticism and as a way to block rational debate about what he does. Its fucking brilliant. Because as soon as some fool starts regurgitating half-baked religious nonsense it forces rational people to address the delusion before they can address the real problems. In addition there is this irrational "respect" (Marf has it in spades) for religion, and far to many people are willing to just bend over and take it in the exit-sphincter rather than risk offending some delusional moron by calling him a delusional moron.
This was the Bush-Cheney plan from the beginning though. They know very well how people react to religion, and they use it. If you examine the things that the Bush admin has actually done (removing posse comitatus, suspending habeus corpus, signing a law that lets the president declare anyone an "enemy combatant", adding "signing statements" to every single bill he has signed to declare that he doesn't have to follow the new law if he doesn't want to, looting medicare/medicaid and turning it into a federal charity for drug companies, the attempt to loot the social security trust fund, the literal looting of the US treasury by killing our budget surplus and increasing federal debt more than any president in history all to give money to KBR and Haliburton..... I could go on), and compare it to the things he says he wants to do (anti-gay constitutional ammendment, etc) it becomes clear to me that he is just full of shit.
He really is Zaphod Beeblebrox, and his sole purpose is to distract attention away from the real wielders of power. These guys have conspired to rob the US blind, and they have done a pretty damn good job of it.
Religion is just the smokescreen they use to invoke sympathy even from seriously liberal people like Marf. And it works.
So I really don't give a rats ass if anyone thinks its "religious discrimination" to say that Romney is unfit to be president because of his professed religious faith. He IS unfit, and that is the main reason why. Same for Huckabee.
The world needs reality based politicians, not these tent revival snake oil sellin motherfuckers.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/05/2008 : 06:36:59 [Permalink]
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Dude, I couldn't have said it better myself.
To me, fundamentalism in any faith, from any political party, automatically disqualifies a candidate. Why, you ask? Read the history of the major religions, notably Christianity & Islam. They have changed over the milinena only in form, not purpose nor degree.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 07:01:52 [Permalink]
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| Over at TPM, they noticed odd Iowa ads talking about Huck as being "vertical" and wondered what that was all about. Turns out, it's fundy-speak that is clearly under the radar of the mainstream media. As Josh notes, "the more I look at this I don't think there's any question this is a clever dog whistle call out to Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals that his politics are God's politics." |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 12:38:37 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Dude, you are my man! Good little essay! I think you are probably closer to the truth in your assessment of the Bush strategy than my simplistic attribution of his utter failure as president to his fundamentalist delusions. What you accurately postulate sounds like a typical Rove Machiavellian power play and rings with truth!
However, my point is that the dumb fucker is either stupid enough or manipulated enough (or probably both) to really believe and/or profess his "born again" Christianity. No one of that general lack of intelligence and/or integrity has any business being president. Obviously! We are now reaping the awful harvest of Bush's utter incompetence!
Fuckabee is obviously an intellectual dwarf (read "Creationist"), (who, Marf says, offends her so greatly she will leave the country if he is elected); and so is Mutt, who is truly delusional with a real tooth fairy faith! None of these Republican sycophants have sufficient common sense, awareness or grace to zip their pants or garage their Johnson!
How Marf, who shows signs of intelligence now and then, can hold intellectual "respect" for those who profess to deep religion, is utterly beyond me! As you said once, some of these pretenders to the status of presidential caliber may be "nice guys", but as thinkers, they're stinkers! She scolds me for forming judgments about Mormons based on my personal experience with and observation of many Mormons, but defends her own confidence in the decision-making prowess of LDS believers based on her acquaintance with a Mormon cousin who is "kind", "hardworking" and a "liberal".
Liberal Mormon sounds suspiciously like an oxymoron to me, but even granting that this person has all of these stellar qualities, none of them explain the lack of effective cognitive process that would permit him/her to embrace a Mormon "faith"! And the judging of presidential stature based on a nice, kind personality defines the fools that really dig Fuckabee's folksy TV charisma; yet Marf states that she abhors the good minister! Go figure!
I would change only one word in your whole piece:| So I really don't give a rats ass if anyone thinks its "religious discrimination" to say that Romney is unfit to be president because of his professed religious faith. He IS unfit, and that is the main reason why. Same for Huckabee. |
I would say "primary" because to my mind, the religion disqualifies them before any other consideration! And I am proudly prejudicial and discriminatory in that regard. I plead guilty to religious intolerance when it comes to judging political aspirants! |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 14:20:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Liberal Mormon sounds suspiciously like an oxymoron to me, but even granting that this person has all of these stellar qualities, none of them explain the lack of effective cognitive process that would permit him/her to embrace a Mormon "faith"! And the judging of presidential stature based on a nice, kind personality defines the fools that really dig Fuckabee's folksy TV charisma; yet Marf states that she abhors the good minister! Go figure! |
Unless you can claim to have met every honest-to-goodness Mormon and understand the intricacies of their faith, I think it's a bit unfair to make statements like "Liberal Mormon sounds suspiciously like an oxymoron to me." I am good friends with a Mormon who is no Bush supporter (and no Mitt supporter either, though as a Brit he won't be voting anytime soon). He happily admits that there are absurdities in his faith, but out of tradition, habit, and other reasons too complex to go into, he goes along with it. He's a good family man, a smart scholar, and an all-around good guy.
On some level, I do have contempt for the religious. But on a realistic day-to-day level, I know plenty of good, religious people (including family) who don't let their religion get in the way of being decent human beings.
Is the basic story of the Mormon faith utterly batshit crazy? Yessir! But does that mean that anyone who belongs to the church is a fundy conservative whacko? No, not at all. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 17:10:11 [Permalink]
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Cune.....
Dude and I are not talking about qualities like being a good family man, a good guy, or a decent human being! I have no doubt that millions of Mormons and millions of evangelicals fit those qualifications! And they are all more than welcome to their crazy beliefs and I have absolutely no quarrel with them believing any damn thing they want to for whatever reason! As long as they don't run for political office of any consequence (national politics) in this country.
We are saying essentially, that if anyone is wacko enough to be a Mormon or a Evangelical, we have very serious doubts of their intellectual, rational and cognitive abilities as they may apply to successfully performing the duties of the President of the United States! Bush is a wacko. He may be a good family man, a "good guy" (I don't really know what that is) and even possibly a decent human being. With his obvious disdain for the value of human life, I rather doubt that! But he most emphatically is not qualified to be the President. We have proof positive of that.
The fact that he claims to be a fundie Christian and repeatedly speaks to the "fact" that God guides him in his horribly wrong decisions, was (and is) a great big giant warning sign to me that he is NOT qualified to be our president. I apply the exact same cautionary to Romney and Huckabee. The fact alone that they deeply believe and follow utterly irrational religious dogma in structuring their value and decision systems tells me that I don't want them anywhere near the Presidency!
It is none of my business to enquire, or criticize or even comment on those that want to believe irrational crap and even guide their lives by those beliefs. But when these kind of folks aspire to be the U.S. President with the awesome power given by that office, the implicit consequences for the world at large, and most particularly, the personal consequences for me and my family; I want no part of any kind of irrational religiosity in a candidate that I would support or vote for. And I feel compelled to vocally oppose such people as loudly as I can! I think I speak for Dude here too, although he is extremely well equipped to speak for himself.
I do welcome other comment on this issue of specific religious discrimination and prejudice, which it clearly is. Someone tell me why I should cut anyone any slack on their religious beliefs if they want to be my president or congressman - essentially my ruler during their tenure!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 17:37:44 [Permalink]
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If you are a Mormon, an actual member of the church, then you give 30% of your salary to the church.
So yes, I can reasonably say that anyone who claims to be a Mormon is, by definition, in full support of the claims and policies of their church.
Therefore I can also say that they are delusional and unfit to hold the highest leadership position in this country, because they provide the financial backing to an organization that is blatantly off its fucking rocker.
It sickens me that religion has come to dominate so much of our political culture. I can only imagine that the founding fathers would agree.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 18:46:44 [Permalink]
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It's time to quit pandering to the slack jawed skull draggers. I have just finished reading "Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" for the second time in the past 12 months. I have placed orders for the book to be delivered to my nieces and nephews and their children. In my mind Carl speaks volumes on the hazards of belief without foundation.
Candidates such as Romney and Huckabie really scare me due to their propensity to believe. I don't trust their judgement. I suspect that their judgement will be poluted by their willingness to believe. And their beliefs poluted by their faith. Critical thinking independent of faith suffers. We have suffered enough. I am tired of being polite. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 20:21:55 [Permalink]
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| I guess, Bngbuck, that my objection was to your suggestion that "liberal Mormon" was an oxymoron. I simply pointed out that I was good friends with a person who, while perhaps not "liberal" (however we define that) is unquestionably left-of-center. That's all. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 20:45:06 [Permalink]
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Moakley....
Thanks for the comment. Religious idiots like Romney and Huckabee have no more place in rational politics than Pat Robertson or the late (thank his god for taking him away) Jerry Falwell. Eight years or even four years ago, one of these oleaginous idiots could well have been elected by the rancid Republican Religious Wrong.
There are encouraging signs today that this is no longer true, but I worry about Hillary as the Dem choice. She is certainly an old-school Democrat middle liner, she shows all the fire of a day-old doobie, and she voted for this damn war. It's heavy baggage, and some fundamentalist asshole like Suckabee could charm the ignorant masses out there who pay no attention to politics until election day noon, to vote for him as a latter day grinning religious Reaganhead!
Obama, although black, is a little green for me. The black part would be great for America as would the woman part of a Hillary presidency, but they both are carrying some heavy baggage for the undecided middle to pick up and run with! Roberts is a slick (too slick) good old city boy with an unfortunate predeliction for hundred dollar haircuts and the lifestyle of a fat cat, which he is. But he is the most liberal of the bunch, representing the trial lawyer political powerhouse (which is not a pretty political picture) and for that reason alone, I would vote for him. With certain reservations!
The only Great White Hope (no derogation to Barack) in sight is Al Gore. He would sweep the convention, the country, and the election like a tsunami, if he would but run! I'm afraid Filthy is right, though, he ain't gonna do it! He's been there, done that, got elected, got thoroughly screwed by a Scalia dominated Supreme Court, and went on to greater things like making several hundred million dollars, a Nobel prize, an Academy Award and an Emmy! In that order.
The presidency starts to pale in comparison! After all, it's only for eight years at the max! I think he wants to save the world in a different way, and he may be right! His potential for long term good probably is as least as high from his efforts to create a climate for climate control as it would be from the undoubtedly excellent work he would do as president! I don't think he wants to clean up Bush's mess, which is admittedly a bit of a thankless task resulting in being damned if you do or not!
Anyway, I want change, big change! And I think we're going to at least get a start in that direction if we push the pendulum as far over to the left as it will go, natural forces being what they are. I appreciate your support as a liberal - a label I wear with pride! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 22:14:17 [Permalink]
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Cune.....
I am not condemning Mormorons as a class when I refer to oxymoronic Mormons. As I said before, they may be great, hail fellow well met sweetheart neighbors and friends and they are completely welcome to their (your phrase) batshit crazy religion as long as they don't run for office. I think they're nuts, and a whole lot of folks agree with me - some for the right reasons and some for the wrong.
Anyone's entitled to have nutty ideas. I've got a lot myself, that's why I will never win a boy scout badge for "Critical Thinking" Relentless logic applied to everything is not my style and never will be. Life is too much fun to nit pick it to death. All the way to Death!
But I totally appreciate the efficiency and power of the scientific method approach to problem solving and the kind of thinking skills (critical) that have to be used to successfully apply the SM to solve any difficult conundrum of the physical world. It is my belief that the puzzles of social interaction resulting from a world full of contentious nations constantly in conflict of one sort or another, can only be successfully addressed by the same type of thinking skills that are used to tease out the secrets of the physical universe - critical and creative thinking skills. Grown folks who slavishly adhere to nonsensical religious crap taught to them by ignorant or poorly educated parents (or perhaps even fanatical parents, as in the Middle East) definitely do not possess such thinking skills.
I would wager that most people fitting this description in the U.S. are political conservatives. You seldom see a highly religious liberal. There was Jimmy Carter - sweet man, lousy president, religious nut! And John Kennedy - deeply flawed man, fair president, Catholic! (At least as crazy as fundamentalism or Moronism.) OK, OK, there are exceptions. But most of your real religious nut jobs are right wingnut jobs! And I would wager a lot, with damn favorable odds to any one who might like to take me on, that most Mormorons are not Critical Thinkers or Liberals! Wanna bet?
I'm not so damn sure of this.....| Is the basic story of the Mormon faith utterly batshit crazy? Yessir! But does that mean that anyone who belongs to the church is a fundy conservative whacko? No, not at all. |
Maybe not anyone or everyone, but most and I'm willing to put money on it, as above! I have no studies or facts to back up this contention, it is not a Critically derived Thought, but I'd bet the farm on it simply out of the intuition derived from sixty years of observing human foibles! And spending many of those years living in an area second only to Salt Lake City in Mormon population. I lived with these folks for a long time! They have no business being President of the U.S.! Neither do Fundies! And, liberal apostasy, neither do devout Catholics or Islamics! Any arguments out there, left wingers? |
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Buck on Huck
