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dobryjr
New Member
3 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2008 : 13:55:22
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I have stumbled upon an article couple months ago. It was dealing with the idea that babies that were born and didn't reach the age of maturity (7 or so) that they don't go to heaven or hell. Google search returned gibberish including many websites about babies going to heaven and how god is great and all. I am looking for some hard proof from the bible old/new testament that says babies don't go to heaven.
If there is no such thing then sorry to interrupt, but I swear I saw it around the internet. :/
Thanks for any replies.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 14:56:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dobryjr
I have stumbled upon an article couple months ago. It was dealing with the idea that babies that were born and didn't reach the age of maturity (7 or so) that they don't go to heaven or hell. Google search returned gibberish including many websites about babies going to heaven and how god is great and all. I am looking for some hard proof from the bible old/new testament that says babies don't go to heaven.
If there is no such thing then sorry to interrupt, but I swear I saw it around the internet. :/
Thanks for any replies. |
Welcome to SFN, dobryjr!
I am not familiar with any discussion in any bible about age waivers for judgement, but I am not the most biblically literate person here. Perhaps somebody else knows of something ....
Please don't feel bashful about starting/joining a conversation here; that's what we're all about: conversations.
In the meantime, I encourage you drop by the Introduce Yourself thread. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 15:21:34 [Permalink]
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The term you're searching for is "age of accountability" (sometimes also referred to as the "age of reason"). Googling that phrase returned several relevant articles, including Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? and Is The Age of Accountability Biblical?
The first article seems to say that there is some support in the bible for the concept, but it is weak. The second basically says it's a load of wishful thinking:| While these doctrines of accountability may serve to comfort bereaved parents who have lost children either through accidents, murder, miscarriage, abortion, or sickness, it is not a Biblically validated view, and is contrary to all that God has declared of sin and those who commit it. The plain truth is, this is simply a natural humanistic response in sentimentality related to man thinking more of himself than is justified. i.e., we naturally all want to think nice things about children. But man does not govern how we are to understand God's Word, the Word itself should. And God doesn't share the popular Church opinion that children's sins are unaccountable because of their age. |
Nice guy, that Yahweh. The Wikipedia entry says: Age of accountability
This is the age at which a child is old enough to understand the moral consequences of his or her actions and can be held accountable for sins. It is also called the 'age of reason.' Though it does not correspond to a particular age for every person, due to differences in personal and psychological maturation, it is sometimes set down arbitrarily as 12 or, in the Roman Catholic Church, 7; the latter convention gave rise to the English common-law presumption that no child under the age of seven could possess the mens rea necessary for commission of a felony. In the LDS Church the age of accountability is 8. The concept of the age of accountability is not based upon any direct teaching from the Bible, but stems from individual church traditions. A child who has passed the age of accountability is said to know the difference between right and wrong and to be capable of obeying the moral laws of God. Some Christian traditions believe that the age of accountability is the end of a period of early grace (prevenient grace, in Wesleyan traditions) which covers over the sins of those not capable of knowing the moral consequences of their actions. (Those persons who, due to disabled mental or emotional development, will never reach a sufficient level of abstract reason, are covered by this grace for life and are sometimes known as 'the innocents.') |
(bolding mine)
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/04/2008 15:32:55 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 15:59:41 [Permalink]
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From that page:...John 2:2 says Jesus "is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith... Yeah! Yeah, yeah yeah!
I'm saved! We're all friggin' saved, man! Screw Pascal, and forget all plans of deathbed conversion.
(Except John 2:2 is about Jesus being invited to a wedding. Ah, 'cause it's 1 John 2:2.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 16:15:27 [Permalink]
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dobryjr.....
If I read you right, you are looking for "hard proof" that the Bible says that babies or children under seven years of age do not go to heaven. Not that there is "hard proof" in the Bible that babies do not go to heaven.
If the former is the case, all I can say is I don't think so. I am not a Biblical scholar, although I have read extensively in the Bible, both the old and new Testaments. this from Wiki Answers is as close as I could get:
Do animals go to heaven or hell when they die according to the Bible?
Answer
Neither, animals have a spirit of life but no soul, when they die, they die all over.
Answer
According to the Bible (Revelation), animals do go to Heaven. I can't find any reference in the Bible that animals also go to hell.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. |
If you are looking for "Hard Proof" for anything in the Bible, get set for a long haul of direct and redirect in this forum. Most of the folks here, including myself, think the Bible is a antique set of fairy tales. peppered with a few words of wisdom and an occasional aphorism, metaphor or simile that is useful to quote now and then. But "proof"? Not gonna be in the "good book"
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 16:31:04 [Permalink]
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The closest may be Matthew 19.14
| Matthew 19:14: "Jesus said, "Let the little children [paidion] come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."" |
The Greek word for "little children" in these verses is paidion, which means "a little child, either male or female" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1089). In verse 4 (above) we are told that whoever "humbles himself" like a child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and the Greek word for "humbles" (tapeinoo) means "to bring low, to humble" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1366). These "low, humble" people who believe in Jesus and are like little children are mentioned by the Greek word mikros in verse 6 (above), which means "low, humble" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.986). Now, notice in the above passages that Jesus did not say, "unless you change and become like murderers, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." We would not expect Jesus to say such a thing because unrepentant murderers are excluded from heaven (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8, 22:14-15). Since Jesus said that we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, the implication is that little children are not excluded from heaven for any reason. This further supports the view that infants and young children are spiritually alive and will go to heaven if they die.
That's the best I can do, dobryjr.
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dobryjr
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 17:47:37 [Permalink]
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I would like to thank all of you, I am quite surprised at how fast you all have helped. Even though I did not find any proof for my own purpose, nonetheless I would like to thank you all.
To clarify, I am an atheist, strongly opposed to religion. The reason I was searching for a proof that babies don't go to heaven is that I argued with my friend(who is a Christian). Foolishly enough I reminded myself about an article that said babies don't go to heaven but that must have been my imagination since I can't find that article. Anyway I bet my friend, now I am desperately looking for some proof that babies don't go to heaven. I guess I'll just have to accept my own defeat. Thanks to all that helped. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 17:53:05 [Permalink]
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The cop out from the Christian is to say "God is the final judge - He would not let babies go to hell", even though children are born with Original Sin and therefore are damned from the get go. But God of the BuyBull does a lot of things we would not agree with, so who knows?
I would challenge your friend to quote the scripture where it says babies do NOT go to hell when they die, or where it says they DO go to heaven - do not pass go, do not collect $200. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 18:09:09 [Permalink]
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Actually, rereading the original post, I see that dobryjr was trying to remember a scenario where infants don't go to Heaven or Hell, in which case he may be thinking of Limbo:| The Limbo of Infants refers to a hypothetical permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin. Since at least the time of Augustine, theologians, considering baptism to be necessary for the salvation of those to whom it can be administered have debated the fate of unbaptized innocents, and the theory of the Limbo of Infants is one of the hypotheses that have been formulated as a proposed solution. Some who hold this theory regard the Limbo of Infants as a state of maximum natural happiness, others as one of "mildest punishment" consisting at least of privation of the beatific vision and of any hope of obtaining it. This theory, in any of its forms, has never been dogmatically defined by the Church, but it is permissible to hold it. Recent Catholic theological speculation tends to stress the hope that these infants may attain heaven instead of the supposed state of Limbo; however, the directly opposed theological opinion also exists, namely that there is no afterlife state intermediate between salvation and damnation, and that all the unbaptized are damned. |
The concept of Limbo is strictly a Church teaching (though not official doctrine), and not found in the bible itself, however.
It's interesting to note just how far back this question of what happens to unbaptized babies goes. This conundrum has been a thorn in the side of Christian theologians from just about the beginning. And it's still a hot topic. A group commissioned by Pope John Paul II released a document entitled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized" as recently as April, 2007.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/04/2008 18:20:07 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 18:31:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dobryjr
To clarify, I am an atheist, strongly opposed to religion. The reason I was searching for a proof that babies don't go to heaven is that I argued with my friend(who is a Christian). Foolishly enough I reminded myself about an article that said babies don't go to heaven but that must have been my imagination since I can't find that article. Anyway I bet my friend, now I am desperately looking for some proof that babies don't go to heaven. I guess I'll just have to accept my own defeat. Thanks to all that helped.
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I think the qualifier is "unbaptized." Unbaptized babies don't (necessarily) go to Heaven (but it's officially okay by the Church if you hope and pray they do).
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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dobryjr
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 21:31:35 [Permalink]
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| Thanks H. Humbert, Limbo is what I was looking for. Being a former Roman Catholic, that must have been on my mind. At least I'll be wrong with style, it was foolish of me to say that something like babies going to hell would be in the bible or new/old testament. pleco I will tell my friend to quote it. Thanks for all the help. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 12:10:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dobryjr
I am looking for some hard proof from the bible old/new testament that says babies don't go to heaven.
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Well, you've come to the right place.  |
-Chaloobi
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2008 : 08:54:10 [Permalink]
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I have never read any scripture that says children do not go to heaven. Here is my view of children and salvation. Take it for what its worth.
Everybody including children need to be saved. The bible states that all have sinned. Romans 3:10-18, 5:12-21 and 1John 1:10 are among them. The bible does not exclude anybody including children. There is only one gospel Gal 1:9. Only one plan of salvation and that is faith in Jesus Christ.
The age of accountability doctrine basically states that children go to heaven until a certain age that they become accountable for their own salvation. The exact age that a child becomes accountable is disputed and many ages have been given. Twelve is one age given because this is the age that Jesus is thought to be when he ran away form his parents and went to the temple to preach. Most Christians probably adhere to that the age is different for each child depending on their understanding of scripture and it is the parent's job to know when this is.
Scripture states that children are accountable for their sins, no matter what age they are. Proverbs states:
Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right. (Prov 20:11 NIV)
This seems to indicate that all God considers children to be good or bad, if their conduct is pure and right this indicates that it can be impure and sinful.
From the scriptures:
Mat 18:2-6 N IV. He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Jesus talks in verse 3 that children enter the kingdom of heaven. Also a key phrase here is “these little ones who believe in me”. These little ones already believe in Jesus. Jesus says so.
Luke 18:15-16 NIV. People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
This states that children will enter the kingdom of god.
Psalm 22:9-10 NIV. Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.
David states that he believed in God from birth because God made him.
Samual 12:23 NIV. But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
David had confidence that he would be with his dead child in heaven some day.
Mat 21:16 NIV Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, " 'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise?"
The babies still unable to speak can praise God. This indicates that they have faith.
2 Timothy 3:15 NIV. and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
The infants know the Holy Scriptures and God.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2008 : 09:20:19 [Permalink]
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| Assuming that most Christians believe as you do Robb that babies and little children go to heaven when they die, then why do Christians get so upset at abortions? Every one of those unborn children went straight to heaven - unblemished by the corrupt world. Seems the abortionists did them a favor - they didn't get a chance to choose wrongly and end up going to hell. If that were the case, I'd wish I had been aborted before I had a chance to become an atheist. I'd be in heaven right now! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2008 : 09:52:41 [Permalink]
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| The infants know the Holy Scriptures and God. |
And you know this because scripture says so. [sigh] Robb, why don't you test some of your assumptions against, you know, reality every once in awhile. I think you might find the idea that infants know scripture a ludicrous proposition. Oh, I forgot. Faith means never having to deal with reality.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/11/2008 09:53:14 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2008 : 11:57:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Assuming that most Christians believe as you do Robb that babies and little children go to heaven when they die, then why do Christians get so upset at abortions? Every one of those unborn children went straight to heaven - unblemished by the corrupt world. Seems the abortionists did them a favor - they didn't get a chance to choose wrongly and end up going to hell. If that were the case, I'd wish I had been aborted before I had a chance to become an atheist. I'd be in heaven right now!
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If you would have rather been aborted then you would want someone else to commit sin. Not a biblical concept. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Christianity, heaven or hell or neither for babies
