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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2009 : 19:18:55 [Permalink]
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Doomar:
Please elucidate on the lies of evolution. What specifically in evolutionary science do you believe to be a lie, and why. Please cite your sources.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 21:02:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
So you presume. Perhaps Moakley can respond for himself. We'll see.
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Well, it was not such a tortuous reasoning to figure out, you know.
When you're a little child your Mom tells you, "Do not touch the stove or it will hurt you!" You are too young to understand all the reasons, but because you trust your Mommy, you don't touch the stove.
As you get older you begin to understand why your Mom told you that and you have no scars. If you're a disobedience child you learn the reason way too soon and you're scarred for life. Such is what happened to Eve. |
First of all, yes.
A mother that'd let her small child without supervision, especially in a room with a clear danger would indeed be held responsible for any accidents. Indeed, irresponsible parents are arrested all the time.
Furthermore, what seems to escape you, is that God is not a mother or a father or any kind of parental metaphore.
A mother has to use an oven to cook for a husband, before doing the dishes. I mean what else is she suppose to do? Get a job?
Also, a mother has to take a crap from time to time, or go and check something in another room.
But God, not so much. He is omnipotent, you know? God has no need for an oven and God is always in the room.
As such, he had no need to switch the oven on and knew the lively baby was going to burn himself.
How would you call somebody that purposely swith on an oven so that a kid can burn himself on it? A loving parent?
But in response to your deluge of blasphemy, if God does exist, what has he done to you to provoke such hatred and contempt? Think carefully about your answer. We are not talking about people who say they are serving God, but God himself.
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Except, that God permitted whatever the people that say they are serving God did.
Also, God permitted what the people that did not act on his behalf as well as all the Natural non made-made disasters.
You seem to fail grasping this simple concept: God, being omniscient and ominipotent, shares the responsibility with everything that happens.
He is not pulling the trigger, if you believe in free will, but he definitely gave everybody the guns!
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 02/12/2009 08:01:27 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 07:43:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
Originally posted by pleco
Still trying to figure out how Eve was supposed to know that eating the fruit was bad before she ate the fruit...
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When you're a little child your Mom tells you, "Do not touch the stove or it will hurt you!" You are too young to understand all the reasons, but because you trust your Mommy, you don't touch the stove.
As you get older you begin to understand why your Mom told you that and you have no scars. If you're a disobedience child you learn the reason way too soon and you're scarred for life. Such is what happened to Eve.
Do yo think your Mom somehow planned for you to pull a pot of hot soup down on your head? Are you crazy? That's why she warned you! She loved you and even knew someone might tell you the stove won't hurt you, but if you continued to trust your Mom and her wisdom, you simply obeyed her and didn't listen to anyone who told you otherwise.
It's amazing how darkened minds miss the simplicity of this story: Trust or mistrust. Believe or don't believe.
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Most kids touch something warm or hot at some point in the lives. Their brains remember this, and instinct tells them that it will hurt. When their mom tells them it is hot, they already know.
But it doesn't matter. If Eve had no knowledge of what good or evil was, then she could not know the consequences of her actions, or that her action would be bad (evil). You guys are so fond of classifying sin as bad - how could she know she was sinning if she had no knowledge of what evil was?
And you conveniently skip over the part where God already knew all this would happen, therefore Eve had no choice and was doomed to begin with.
When is someone gonna find that flaming sword guarding the Garden?
Maybe we should discuss how Adam and Eve's children had to commit incest in order to populate the world.
Or is all this moot since you are going to interpret the bible to include information that isn't state to satisfy these plot holes?
It is amazing how closed minds shut out anything and everything that contradicts the little box that have placed around their world. Cognitive dissonance - hallowed be thy name. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 02/12/2009 07:50:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 08:11:04 [Permalink]
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If God is omniscient, and if God created everything, then God created things to be exactly as they are, as they have been, and as they will be. God has no one to blame or credit but Himself.
If he isn't omniscient, and he created everything, then He irresponsibly, or with malice aforethought, set loose a mess for which only He can be blamed or credited.
Let go of your need for these ancient tribal delusions, Doomar. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 15:16:03 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 21:09:21 [Permalink]
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I go away for a few days, & the thread comes back to life! I'll have to rethink my stance on resurrection. 
Doomar, my only errors in my interpretation of the Bible are: not putting on my God-does-no-wrong blinders, and not taking my this-has-to-be-interpreted-in-a-way-that-glorifies-God mind-altering pill, before I read it (and think about it - oh, wait, that's probably another "error").
Doomar responded to my analysis of Genesis 3 with these comments (among others):
| Zebra, if you don't believe in God or in the Scriptures, why do you waste your time pointing out supposed flaws? |
I believe the Bible exists, and that it gets used improperly (as evidence, for which is it not qualified). I find Biblical analysis & critique to be interesting (was going to comment on the Lazarus story you quoted earlier in this thread, but didn't want to put everyone through that). I do not find, in the Bible or elsewhere, evidence to support the claim that God or gods exist, but I do have "cognitive flexibility" and am able to make the (unwarranted IMO) assumption that God exists, then see what logically follows from that. One point: If God exists, then he knows what I'm like and knows what it would take to convince me, yet not strip away my free will. Scientists can convince me without violating my free will simply by presenting reliable evidence; why couldn't God do that?
| So you do remember a bit of Sunday School lessens, eh, Zebra? |
Nope. I attended Sunday school for about 3 weeks at age 9, but quit when I decided the Jesus-is-a-hunk-who-loves-little-children-and-cute-baby-animals message clashed mightily with the content of Genesis, which I was reading at the time. Particularly the part where God kills almost everything & everyone on earth in the Flood.
I do freely admit that some of my skeptical analysis of this Genesis story stems from analysis we've done in the adult religious education sessions I've attended at my UU church, given by our formerly-Pentecostal-now-UU minister.
| Of course they were supposed to live forever in perfect fellowship with God, but they die spiritually immediately, cut off from God by their sin, and then eventually they died physically. |
This is an assumption which you and other Christians make. You like it because it fits with the version of the story which exists nowhere but in your over-hopeful imagination. This is unsupported by the text; see Genesis 3:22, which contradicts this baseless view.
| And so it is, not what you interpreted, but the words of the Bible are definitely true. |
The contents of the Bible are definitely words. "True" is another matter. Shall we quote some assertions made in the Bible which are demonstrably untrue? I'll bet we can come up with quite a list. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 21:23:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
Shall we quote some assertions made in the Bible which are demonstrably untrue? I'll bet we can come up with quite a list.
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A modest start:
1. Bats are birds
2) Grasshoppers have four legs
3) Earth is flat (either square or a disk, depending upon the verse.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 22:08:55 [Permalink]
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Birds appearing before land animals.
Rabbits chew their cuds.
One can survive several days in the belly of a whale/fish.
Raining for 40 days would cover the entire earth with water.
And yet, sea-water animals survive the sudden drop in salinity
And yet, this water would conveniently disappear when the genocide is complete.
And yet, the people and animals from the ark (a few millions of them) can somehow survive in the now barren earth (unless plants did survive too)...
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 23:56:50 [Permalink]
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1) Moon is a light source
2) Stars fixed in firmament
3) Water above firmament
4) 3 is a good approximation to pi |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/13/2009 : 03:30:50 [Permalink]
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Bushes burn during conversations 
snakes and donkeys talk
People get turned into salt
Mods, this turkey has gotten so long and repetitious and downright boring that y'all should think about locking it down like Charlie Manson and kicking off another. Have a little pity on the lurkers. 
The omnipotent God fears a small, golden icon
Manna, what ever that was, raining from the sky
Walking on water
Feeding a multitude with a can of sardines and a couple of biscuits
Water into wine in an instant
Rising from the dead
Cleansing lepers by magic
Murdering fig trees with a curse
The list is endless, therefore pointless. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 08:18:10 [Permalink]
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Miracles don't count (indeed, pointless to list/discuss).
Biblical "facts" about the natural world, outside of miraculous events, are useful to list, though. They can be compared to real-life observations, discrepancies noted, and the source of those discrepancies discussed (though for some reason the Bible thumpers never seem to get as engaged in this part of scripture-quoting as in the "you're going to hell if you don't believe" part). |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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crusadex
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 08:55:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
More Christian lunacy. There has been plenty since the time when maniac hermits preached from atop pillars in the Syrian desert. How original.
Doomar, did it ever occur to you to adapt, if not your underlying message, at least your presentation? This is a skeptic site, and your "audience" includes a whole shitload of, well, atheists. You sound like a nut, the way you rave to us. Trying in this venue what might pass for a typical hell-and-brimstone sermon in a Baptist church, is as out of place as if Lenny Bruce did his comedy routine in Sunday School.
It might make a lot more sense to begin with some evidence of the mere existence of your gods Yahweh and Satan, rather that to start right out quoting from ancient mythology, trying to scare intelligent adults with fairy tale threats.
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Slander? seems a bit to lowbrow for such enlightened people.
Your right about presentation though,gotta speak on your audiances level.I think your bigotry would keep you from seeing evidence eeven if it was presented.
bigot
One entry found.
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \#712;bi-g#601;t\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 08:59:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by crusadex
Originally posted by HalfMooner
More Christian lunacy. There has been plenty since the time when maniac hermits preached from atop pillars in the Syrian desert. How original.
Doomar, did it ever occur to you to adapt, if not your underlying message, at least your presentation? This is a skeptic site, and your "audience" includes a whole shitload of, well, atheists. You sound like a nut, the way you rave to us. Trying in this venue what might pass for a typical hell-and-brimstone sermon in a Baptist church, is as out of place as if Lenny Bruce did his comedy routine in Sunday School.
It might make a lot more sense to begin with some evidence of the mere existence of your gods Yahweh and Satan, rather that to start right out quoting from ancient mythology, trying to scare intelligent adults with fairy tale threats.
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Slander? seems a bit to lowbrow for such enlightened people.
Your right about presentation though,gotta speak on your audiances level.I think your bigotry would keep you from seeing evidence eeven if it was presented.
bigot
One entry found.
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \#712;bi-g#601;t\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
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Please prove the bigotry - merely stating it doesn't make it true. And keep in mind the definition of the word when building your case. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:34:51 [Permalink]
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| You also have not started to present anything like an 'evidence'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:53:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by crusadex
Originally posted by HalfMooner
More Christian lunacy. There has been plenty since the time when maniac hermits preached from atop pillars in the Syrian desert. How original.
Doomar, did it ever occur to you to adapt, if not your underlying message, at least your presentation? This is a skeptic site, and your "audience" includes a whole shitload of, well, atheists. You sound like a nut, the way you rave to us. Trying in this venue what might pass for a typical hell-and-brimstone sermon in a Baptist church, is as out of place as if Lenny Bruce did his comedy routine in Sunday School.
It might make a lot more sense to begin with some evidence of the mere existence of your gods Yahweh and Satan, rather that to start right out quoting from ancient mythology, trying to scare intelligent adults with fairy tale threats.
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Slander? seems a bit to lowbrow for such enlightened people.
Your right about presentation though,gotta speak on your audiances level.I think your bigotry would keep you from seeing evidence eeven if it was presented.
bigot
One entry found.
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \#712;bi-g#601;t\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
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I would defend Doomar's right to believe whatever he wants to believe, even as I argue against his belief. I too think his worldview is shaped by a book of myths. And yet, we have not banned him. I have yet to see that kind of tolerance on a Christian forum toward those of us who would dare to post a challenge to that belief. In short, calling us bigots and intolerant is a bogus charge.
We disagree, and sometimes in the strongest terms. But intolerant? No way!!!
As for the hatred remark, just go back to how we greeted Doomar upon his reappearance in this thread. Does that look like hatred to you?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hell, your final destination?
