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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2008 : 14:35:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
The god is great phrase was meant to encapsulate everything, including repentance.
Regarding why, you say it's because there is no Faith after death. Extrapolating from there, there's no Faith because being in Hell is definitive evidence of God's existance. And you can't know God exists and have Faith that God exists at the same time; knowledge cancels Faith. And God most values those who make life-altering decisions based on no real information.
Of course the next question is why in the world God would value devotion without information. Some thoughts:
A. Some chalk it up to the Myster of Faith; don't know, don't care, have Faith.
B. Others would chalk it up to selling snake oil - Faith arose not because God values it but because it's an extraordinarily effective way for human clergy to create and maintain believers in something that does not exist.
C. The most reasonable theistic explanation I've ever heard was that God is interested in Free Will and knows that certain knowledge of his existance would have people doing His will out of fear instead of understanding his message and embracing it for the right reasons; compassion, love, understanding, forgiveness etc.
IMHO A is just lazy and stupid and God should be disgusted in those who subscribe to it. B is probably the most likely answer, though it renders the whole discussion moot. C is the only acceptable answer, again IMHO, if you're going to be a theist or agnostic even.
But if you accept C, it doesn't make sense at all in the explanation for why you can't repent after death. In C, Faith is a mechanism necessary to help us learn to be good. It is not an end in itself. So it shouldn't matter if you repent and want to have a loving relationship with God after you die. God should be like, "hey, better late than never, man. Welcome aboard." Why wouldn't he? Why wouldn't he in the case of A, for that matter? Most consistantly of all Christians these days refer to God as all compassionate, loving, and forgiving - how can that be reconciled with eternal damnation regardless of repentance?
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RO 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (NIV)
God gives proof in the form of creation and your conscience. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 14:43:16 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi.....
You state:C. The most reasonable theistic explanation I've ever heard was that God is interested in Free Will and knows that certain knowledge of his existance would have people doing His will out of fear instead of understanding his message and embracing it for the right reasons; compassion, love, understanding, forgiveness etc.
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Yeah, the trouble with all the Free Will bullshit is that Free Will is self-contradictory. According to most theists, Man's will cannot supercede God's will. Therefore, man can only have Free Will if God so wishes it in every instance. If God were to decide that you, for instance, were not to have Free Will, you would not. You would become a Godrobot. Period.
So it is not possible to have free will in every possible instance, and therefore it is not truly Free Will.
The whole preposterous concept reminds me of the good Bishop Berkeley's arguments about whether God was about in the Quad at Balliol College, Oxford
There was a young man who said, God
Must think it exceedingly odd
If he finds that this tree
Continues to be
When there's no one about in the Quad
answered appropriately by Berkeley's philosophy....
Dear Sir, your astonishment's odd:
I am always about in the Quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be,
Since observed by, Yours faithfully, GOD.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 14:58:22 [Permalink]
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Most consistantly of all Christians these days refer to God as all compassionate, loving, and forgiving - how can that be reconciled with eternal damnation regardless of repentance?
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This is a misunderstanding of God. A man centered gospel that is sending people to hell in America. God hates people that sin. If he hates the sin and not the sinner then why would God send a sinner to hell after death?
Psalm 5:5
Psalm 11:5
Lev 20:23
Prov 6:16-19
Hosea 9:15
Eph 1:6
God hates the sin and not the sinner is a bumper sticker and not Gods word. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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just_some_guy
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 15:19:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Most consistantly of all Christians these days refer to God as all compassionate, loving, and forgiving - how can that be reconciled with eternal damnation regardless of repentance?
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This is a misunderstanding of God. A man centered gospel that is sending people to hell in America. God hates people that sin. If he hates the sin and not the sinner then why would God send a sinner to hell after death?
Psalm 5:5
Psalm 11:5
Lev 20:23
Prov 6:16-19
Hosea 9:15
Eph 1:6
God hates the sin and not the sinner is a bumper sticker and not Gods word.
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If god hates the sinners and he is all knowing in every way, then why would he make things he hated, knowing full well in advance that people would suffer for all eternity? He knew full well the outcome before the experiment and yet chose to create humans to be punished. Is that not like baking a cake knowing that its not going to come out correctly then getting pissed off at the cake? Seems like a sadist fuck to me.
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 15:32:28 [Permalink]
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| The answer you'll get is the free will stuff, begging the question that if god knows everything then how can a person truly have free will...etc. The religionists, knowing they cannot win the argument, will then throw out "it's a matter of faith" or "you can't understand god" or "you can't understand because you don't believe" or "the bible says so therefore handwave" |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2008 : 15:39:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
God hates people that sin. |
So I take it you have joined the Westboro Baptist Church?
You are one small step away from Killing in the Name of...
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 17:48:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
God hates people that sin. |
We're all born sinners. God hates us all, even those of us who might be "saved" because they sin, too. Next thing you know, Robb, you'll be telling me that even people who're "saved" have to ask forgiveness if they sin to avoid Hell, and you're turning Catholic. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 18:15:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by just_some_guy
If god hates the sinners and he is all knowing in every way, then why would he make things he hated, knowing full well in advance that people would suffer for all eternity? He knew full well the outcome before the experiment and yet chose to create humans to be punished. Is that not like baking a cake knowing that its not going to come out correctly then getting pissed off at the cake? Seems like a sadist fuck to me.
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I do not have an answer. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 18:16:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Robb
God hates people that sin. |
So I take it you have joined the Westboro Baptist Church?
You are one small step away from Killing in the Name of...
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Thats quite a leap. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 18:23:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
God hates people that sin. |
We're all born sinners. God hates us all, even those of us who might be "saved" because they sin, too. Next thing you know, Robb, you'll be telling me that even people who're "saved" have to ask forgiveness if they sin to avoid Hell, and you're turning Catholic.
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Saved people are not hated by God. Their sin is attributed to Jesus as if he did the sin. God hated Jesus when he paid our penalty. God sees no sin the believer commits. Ephesians 1:6 states we are acceptable to God once we are saved. God wil not punish believers because our punishment was paid by Jesus Christ.
Paul, in Romans, talks about the reason Christians will try not to sin once they are saved. And why it is not a license to sin. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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just_some_guy
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 18:35:44 [Permalink]
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Robb says:
| God hated Jesus when he paid our penalty. |
Insert self hating Jew joke here.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 18:37:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
God hated Jesus when he paid our penalty. |
How can God hate Himself?| God wil not punish believers because our punishment was paid by Jesus Christ. |
God will not punish believers because our punishement was paid by God. There, fixed that for you.
Oh, and it's not "believers," but the "saved." Someone who makes a pact with Satan certainly must believe in God's existence but just as certainly isn't saved. Or is he....?| And why it is not a license to sin. |
Why not? What's the punishment for someone who is devoutly faithful to Jesus but sins, anyway? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 18:44:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
God hated Jesus when he paid our penalty. |
How can God hate Himself?| God wil not punish believers because our punishment was paid by Jesus Christ. |
God will not punish believers because our punishement was paid by God. There, fixed that for you. |
I cannot explain the trinity to you.
| Oh, and it's not "believers," but the "saved." Someone who makes a pact with Satan certainly must believe in God's existence but just as certainly isn't saved. Or is he....? |
Thanks for the clarification.
What's the punishment for someone who is devoutly faithful to Jesus but sins, anyway?
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Every saved person sins but God does not see a saved persons sin. It has already been forgiven. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 20:36:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I cannot explain the trinity to you. |
It seems to me that they're all one being when it's convenient for the faithful, and that they're all separate beings when it's convenient for the faithful. That would certainly make for difficult explanations.| Every saved person sins but God does not see a saved persons sin. It has already been forgiven. |
Then why isn't salvation a license to sin? If God refuses to see a saved person's sins, then no harm, no foul, the saved are free to murder, rape, pillage and burn as they see fit. Some of the self-professed saved already act that way.
Is it possible for a person to know that he is saved? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 21:18:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Is it possible for a person to know that he is saved?
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According to Robb, it is. This from an exchange we had awhile back: Originally posted by Robb.Originally posted by H. Humbert.
And of course, as Christians are quick to remind, only God truly knows who will be saved and who will not. |
Not so. Read 1 John, this is how you can know you are saved.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13 NIV) |
Of course, Robb also often makes pronouncements like the one in this thread that the majority of Christians are not "true" Christians and are going to hell with the atheists. So while most Christians might think they are saved, they are actually wrong. But Robb is right, because he reads the bible properly. So while the bad Christians only think they know they are saved, Robb actually knows he is saved. And he's able to know this by virtue of being correct.
Make sense yet?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/24/2008 21:20:49 |
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Hell, your final destination?
