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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2008 : 17:05:19 [Permalink]
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Randi: William, I think I'll just wait for this to boil down to its residue before getting too excited …
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Yeh, me too. But I doubt if I'll get much exercised even as it sinks into the oblivian of the Fleisman & Pons Refuse Bin of Over-Enthusiastic Observations.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
 Posted - 02/15/2008 : 21:34:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
...some of what you perceive as "self indulgent and self congratulatory tone" is our venting our inability to seriously examine this fellow's claim. In order to do that, we need to know more about the contraption of his. I see a damn lot of cables running all over the place.
What I need to make a serious analysis of his claims is a detailed schematic with information on exactly what kind of electric motor he's using, and how the entire magnetic-coil, axis-shaft, electrical circuitry etc. is connected.
Not until then can I make an informed opinion. Until then, this whole thing smell like a carnival show.
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Well perhaps all you need to do is ask.  That seems like a prudent first step before essentially dismissing something, non? Ask they did over at overunity.com, and that resulted in a personal demonstration at the University of Ottawa for two of their members and on onging - and to my neophyte eyes, productive - dialog with the inventor. For those who may not have followed the thread it can be found here at overunity.com, with most of the new information beginning on page 10. Resources include new photos, video, diagrams, some additional specifics and the clarification of some information. My NASA reference comes from there as well.
I have no idea how helpful any of it is, because I know less than nothing about this particular science. I believe however that I know a good deal about critical thinking. Logical fallacies notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure for example that a number of Univeristies including MIT being unable at this time to explain the motor's response means were're probably past some version of "Oh it's just because the idiot connected the ankle bone to the leg bone" or whatever. I'm fairly confident that in two years of testing he's done some testing. I don't think anything about this adds up to scam artist. The man doesn't seem stupid to me. What I think all of this adds up to is "Let's wait and see."
I don't know what this device merits, and probably won't for some time. What I'm pretty sure it doesn't merit is the smug, arrogant and worst of all, *lazy* response it's gotten in some quarters. I'm particulary disappointed in the response of James Randi. WHERE is the critical thinking in doing nothing more than regurgitating somebody else's word turds? Particularly when they're already worn precipitously thin, that peculiar but unmistakable effect of a man adoringly reading his own crap over and over before and after he hits send.
Mr. Buck:
Fuck Thank you for your thoughtful information on links. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 22:40:35 [Permalink]
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JustMe, if once a month, someone new told you, "I can fly by flapping my arms," how many failures would you need to see before you began to ignore the claims? Six? 12? 24? Would it make a difference if you knew less than nothing about aeronautics? How about if you were an expert on flight?
There is, of course, a middle ground between "scam artist" and "stupid," and that is "honestly mistaken."
You wish us to ignore the logical fallacies you commit, but then call others smug, arrogant and lazy. If you're going to champion critical thought, you should begin to use it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 23:01:30 [Permalink]
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Hey Dave! Is it late where you are? Because your post makes no fucking sense.
Good night, and good luck.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 23:20:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Hey Dave! Is it late where you are? Because your post makes no fucking sense.
Good night, and good luck. |
You must not be very bright, then. In the future, assume anything which fails to make sense is because of your own personal limitations. Better odds.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 04:51:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Hey Dave! Is it late where you are? Because your post makes no fucking sense.
Good night, and good luck.
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JustMe, getting angry at skeptics for being skeptical on a skeptic site is ridiculous. The claims for the device violate well-established knowledge of physics. So these claims are "extraordinary" and require extraordinary proof. So far, instead of such proof, there is extraordinary confusion and uncertainty. Our minds are open, but "not so open that our brains fall out." Let's see proof of the claims.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/16/2008 04:53:28 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 05:20:18 [Permalink]
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Ok, I just ran a google on it and found a lot, very little of it any help. Here's Wikipedia's: Theory and Criticism
Mechanically, the device appears to be an induction motor with a magnetic material placed inside the rotor core.[10] Heins believes that the device's potential may rest in its atypical manipulation of back EMF. A more detailed description of the device may be found in the patent application, minus supporting figures.[2]
Critics of the system have pointed out that the system described by Heins simply demonstrates a change in the motor's hysteresis drag, increasing the speed of the rotor but not producing any energy.[11] In other words, when the rotor exhibits acceleration following a specific electrical short-out, the device is merely more efficiently converting the input electricity to mechanical energy than in the other test configurations.[12] [13]
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The article also notes that he's applied for a Canadian patent but was turned down. Also, he's started something called Potential Difference Inc. and this is an interesting development. A company implies a product and franchises, and other means of transfering wealth from one purse to another. My bullshit detector hasn't gone off yet, but it's awake. After all, history tells us that a great many, very smart people have been gulled a great many times.
Our Thane may indeed have developed a more efficent motor and if so, hooray & well done! But I think we can safely state that he has not raped & pillaged the Laws of Thermodymanics down there in his cellar.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 06:59:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Hey Dave! Is it late where you are? Because your post makes no fucking sense. |
What doesn't make sense? I asked you how long you would tolerate obviously nonsensical claims. I pointed out that scammer-vs-idiot is a false dichotomy. And I took you to task for boasting about your skepticism while you engaged in (and asked us to ignore) fallacious thinking. I'll be happy to explain further if you need more help parsing what I wrote. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 12:56:34 [Permalink]
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Just Nothing but Me.....
You are indeed The Neophyte Delight!| I have no idea how helpful any of it is, because I know less than nothing about this particular science. |
Which, to a prudent commentator would be cause for caution in advocacy! But apparently you have some cognitive problems in the comprehension of a simple analogy! Dave asked:| JustMe, if once a month, someone new told you, "I can fly by flapping my arms," how many failures would you need to see before you began to ignore the claims? Six? 12? 24? Would it make a difference if you knew less than nothing about aeronautics? How about if you were an expert on flight? |
Now that seems simple enough to understand, NON? But, for lack of a real answer, you reply:Hey Dave! Is it late where you are? Because your post makes no fucking sense.
Good night, and good luck. |
and run away to the arms of Keith Olberman. Now little Me, is that the adult way to behave?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 05:39:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Ok, I just ran a google on it and found a lot, very little of it any help. Here's Wikipedia's: Theory and Criticism
Mechanically, the device appears to be an induction motor with a magnetic material placed inside the rotor core.[10] Heins believes that the device's potential may rest in its atypical manipulation of back EMF. A more detailed description of the device may be found in the patent application, minus supporting figures.[2]
Critics of the system have pointed out that the system described by Heins simply demonstrates a change in the motor's hysteresis drag, increasing the speed of the rotor but not producing any energy.[11] In other words, when the rotor exhibits acceleration following a specific electrical short-out, the device is merely more efficiently converting the input electricity to mechanical energy than in the other test configurations.[12] [13]
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Here is some info for the laymen:
An induction motor works by having coils built into in the motor casing. By shifting current from one coil to another, around the casing, you create an effect of a magnetic field rotating around the center of the engine.
The rotor of the engine consists of a coil too, and when the magnetic fields forced upon it rotates, it induces a reverse magnetic force in the rotor which ultimately forces the rotor to start rotate.
The electrical currents inside the coils, both in the casing and in the rotor, are subject to efficiency loss because of electrical resistance in the coils.
This, together with a less than optimal magnetic connection between the powered coils and the rotor (air gap), creates a drag. The end result: the axle of the induction engine will not rotate in the same speed as the magnetic field inside.
However, with a little angular momentum provided to the axle from outside, the rev of the engine will increase above "idle" speed. Also, if an external magnetic field amplifies the connection over the air gap, efficiency (and rev) will increase.
Also, the experimental contraption does not include a momentum gauge that can tell us if the increased speed of the "Prime mover" (the induction motor) comes from the induction motor, or if it is the generator that is starting to act as a motor by itself feeding back energy. But how can this be confirmed or discounted?
There is also no way to tell the direction of the magnetic energy that goes through the steel shaft. Is the induction motor providing the generator with an extra magnetic flux, or is the generator feeding the induction engine?
If you force an induction motor to higher speed than the magnetic speed (frequency) in the casing, you will actually feed back electrical energy from the motor: it becomes an alternating generator. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/17/2008 05:44:29 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2008 : 06:12:25 [Permalink]
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Assuming that this thing works (not confirmed yet & at the moment, I am skeptical), I wonder how much torque it might be capable of producing. From a practical viewpoint, RPM means little if there's no more torque available than it takes to turn the armature/rotor.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 06:42:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Assuming that this thing works (not confirmed yet & at the moment, I am skeptical), I wonder how much torque it might be capable of producing. From a practical viewpoint, RPM means little if there's no more torque available than it takes to turn the armature/rotor.
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Indeed, that is a consideration.
I still believe there's some external energy added that is unaccounted for. From a material source.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 07:48:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by filthy
Assuming that this thing works (not confirmed yet & at the moment, I am skeptical), I wonder how much torque it might be capable of producing. From a practical viewpoint, RPM means little if there's no more torque available than it takes to turn the armature/rotor.
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Indeed, that is a consideration.
I still believe there's some external energy added that is unaccounted for. From a material source.
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Agree, Doc. I'm a far cry from an electrical engineer, but I've done a fair amount of mechanical work with motors and generators, and frankly, it takes a goodish amount of torque just to pull a simple car alterantor. That is the reason that drag and short-track racers run their engines straight from a battery, eliminating the horsepower drain. And of course, the more torque produced, the more power it requires to produce it.
Here's a very simple & fool-proof test that anyone can do and many have done: jump-start another car with a dead battery. Start your engine and let it idle; then hook up the jumper cables. The running engine will slow down, often considerably, as the other car's battery demands more juice from it's alternator. As an alternator/generator is nothing but an electric motor in reverse, so to speak, this nicely demonstrates just how much snort it takes to pull even a small one.
My bullshit detector still hasn't gone off yet, but it's up and putting the coffee on.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/17/2008 07:52:34 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 09:43:31 [Permalink]
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The ultimate test of an "over unity" generator is to simply connect the output to the input and see if it will run forever while also powering something else, like a small lightbulb.
If, of course, this thing is being billed as an OU generator. It's hard to tell anymore. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 13:14:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If, of course, this thing is being billed as an OU generator. It's hard to tell anymore.
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I don't think it ever was. Certainly he never claimed to have created a perpetual motion machine. All the results he's shared publicly on his devices that use the principle are well under 100% efficiency, but he's made clear that he thinks he can get there given his belief that the system demonstrates a conservation of energy violation. And maybe he can, and maybe it does. I'm pretty skeptical that 2007 marks the year we'll look back on as the one where we finally knew everything there was to know about physics.
Regardless of the odds, there is nothing about his methods or his madness that warranted the strawman snark. If you're going to misuse power (a skilled pen, credibility, an existing relationship of sorts) to pillage the assests (professional and personal reputation) of a stranger based on a bunch of bullshit (the implication that Heins claimed a perpetual motion machine) for your own enrichment (a little thrill up your leg when you get published in the latest SWIFT?), why don't you just go start a Nigerian scam or something. The "skills" required aren't much different.
Seriously, if nobody sees anything particularly off with Mr. Buck's missives in this instance methinks y'all have been spending a bit too much time talking amongst yourselves. |
| Edited by - JustMe on 02/17/2008 16:26:27 |
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Super generator? Perpetual motion? Another grift?
