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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2008 : 01:41:25
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Dr. Edythe London
The life of a famed UCLA medical researcher appears to have been the target of Animal Liberation Front terrorists. It's the second attack on her home, and the first to use deadly means. This from the blog of our own new member, Blue Collar Scientist: “Animal-rights” terrorists want to kill her because some of her work involves the use of lab monkeys. They've already successfully attacked her house once, doing $20,000 to $30,000 worth of damage by flooding it. The terrorists who claimed credit for doing that, calling themselves the Animal Liberation Front, said at the time they they were torn between flooding the house and burning it down.
Now they have come back, and since vandalism didn't work, they're trying to kill her. |
The San Francisco Chronicle has the story. (Also, note the odd comment at the end of the Chronicle story. I don't know what, if anything, to make of the coincidence that the Chron's writer is married to the Disco Institute's Senior Fellow, Wesley J. Smith.)
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/19/2008 02:13:49
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 03:38:56 [Permalink]
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| Some of the comments are downright frightfully ignorant to the point of being scary. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 06:53:42 [Permalink]
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| Given the huge amount of human suffering in the world, how does anyone care enough about animal rights to be willing to kill or hurt a human who is using animals for human good? I can't wrap my head around such an ethic. I love my cats, I'm all about the meat industry using more humane methods of housing and slaughtering animals, but for crap's sake, people have so much greater depth of emotion and intellect, and they are us! Obviously our needs are going to always come way before those of animals. Obviously the only way to have it otherwise would be to force some sort of oppressive vegan regime on all of the rest of humanity. All this kind of violence does it turn more regular people against the cause of animal rights. But these people literally walk around thinking that most of the people they meet are vicious monsters because most of us consume either animals or animal products. Nutjobs. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 11:15:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Given the huge amount of human suffering in the world, how does anyone care enough about animal rights to be willing to kill or hurt a human who is using animals for human good? I can't wrap my head around such an ethic. I love my cats, I'm all about the meat industry using more humane methods of housing and slaughtering animals, but for crap's sake, people have so much greater depth of emotion and intellect, and they are us! Obviously our needs are going to always come way before those of animals. Obviously the only way to have it otherwise would be to force some sort of oppressive vegan regime on all of the rest of humanity. All this kind of violence does it turn more regular people against the cause of animal rights. But these people literally walk around thinking that most of the people they meet are vicious monsters because most of us consume either animals or animal products. Nutjobs.
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Frankly the amount of animal suffering dwarfs humanities problems, which are self inflicted. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 11:17:51 [Permalink]
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Also the protect humans programs generally outweigh the protect animals programs by a thousandfold.
P.S. I am not an ALFer, by any means, just saying their position is justifiable. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 11:30:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
P.S. I am not an ALFer, by any means, just saying their position is justifiable.
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You think terrorism in the cause of animal rights is justifiable? Because that's ALF's position.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:00:45 [Permalink]
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From their point of view yes I do. Considering that a large % of species has become extinct since the pro-animal efforts began circa 1970, if your primary goals are to protect animal species, the current system is essentially useless and arguments for change have little or too slow effects. In the words of Ishmael, the world was made for man and man was made to conquer and rule it. Even us skeptics are woefully attached to this ideal.
Now if you'll excuse me I have a cut-rate t-bone to eat and the growth hormones taste best when hot. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:46:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
From their point of view yes I do. |
Well any group's actions are justified "from their point of view." Al Qaeda certainly feels their actions are justified "from their point of view." So that's not a very meaningful statement. Are ELF's actions justifiable from your point of view?
| Considering that a large % of species has become extinct since the pro-animal efforts began circa 1970, if your primary goals are to protect animal species, the current system is essentially useless and arguments for change have little or too slow effects. In the words of Ishmael, the world was made for man and man was made to conquer and rule it. Even us skeptics are woefully attached to this ideal. |
There is a huge gap between holding responsible environmental and animal rights positions and coming to the conclusion that violence is the only means available. Environmental groups have had successes without resorting to violence, such as the worldwide ban on whaling, so I can't agree that current efforts are "essentially useless." What evidence is there that acts of eco-terrorism are more effective in saving endangered species or changing policies for the better than non-violent ones? I also don't believe the only two positions are either willingly supporting acts of terrorism and violence against people or believing that the world was made for solely for man's benefit. There's a pretty wide middle ground between those two extremes.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:51:18 [Permalink]
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The worldwide ban on whaling is not in full effect, if your position is that all animal species must be saved, then voilence is certaiinly an option, not one I would reccomend, but it is clear that our current course will be disasterous for those with this perspective.
to answer the question
ELF from my point of view, yes.
Al-q from my point of view, no. From their point of view it is justifiable and they dont give my opinion much weight Im afraid. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:54:02 [Permalink]
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Also note, I dont have any opinion that this particular act was justifiable, just that violence in this cause can be justified.
Edit
Well any group's actions are justified "from their point of view." Al Qaeda certainly feels their actions are justified "from their point of view." So that's not a very meaningful statement. Are ELF's actions justifiable from your point of view? |
It is meaningful to me, as I beleive that
a)justification requires perspective
b)and all points of view are equally valid and invalid, as difficult as that is to grasp.
c) altruism is for suckers and Starfleet |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/19/2008 12:59:17 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:58:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Also note, I dont have any opinion that this particular act was justifiable, just that violence in this cause can be justified.
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But how can it be justified if violence is not effective? Where is the evidence that terrorism is more effective than peaceful means?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/19/2008 13:00:45 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 13:02:38 [Permalink]
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Well they've only been trying violence for a little while, though their targets and actions are poorly choosen. Perhaps if they thought bigger they might get results, perhaps not.
What evidence is there that peaceful means will ever bring about results in this case? I have ten frog species that have gone extinct for every one of your spotted owls.
Gotta go, cant defend my unrealistic positions till tomorrow.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 02/19/2008 13:03:40 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 13:19:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
What evidence is there that peaceful means will ever bring about results in this case? I have ten frog species that have gone extinct for every one of your spotted owls. |
Right, except that's not what's being compared here. No one is arguing that species aren't being lost. But in order to compare approaches to that problem, for every spotted owl saved by non-violent means you would need to cite a species saved by terrorism. If violence doesn't achieve the aims it sets out to achieve, then it can hardly be seen as justified.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/19/2008 13:20:24 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 15:21:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
What evidence is there that peaceful means will ever bring about results in this case? I have ten frog species that have gone extinct for every one of your spotted owls. |
Right, except that's not what's being compared here. No one is arguing that species aren't being lost. But in order to compare approaches to that problem, for every spotted owl saved by non-violent means you would need to cite a species saved by terrorism. If violence doesn't achieve the aims it sets out to achieve, then it can hardly be seen as justified.
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Then there would remain the little matter of whether terrorism is defensible even if it were effective. I say no!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2008 : 17:11:47 [Permalink]
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Bunch of cowardly scumbags, if you ask me. That is not the way to go about saving species and as far and I'm concerned, they are no better than the sorry bastards that shoot/blow up Planned Parenthood clinics and their doctors, or that anthrax asshole that our current, shitheadded government never caught.
These vicious clowns make it just that much more difficult for the rest of us. They are not conservationists nor animal protectionists; they are perverts who are doing terrorism for it's own sake.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 17:18:27 [Permalink]
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Umm, might I point out that medical research is not the cause of extinctions? If you want to assign blame for the loss of species, habitat destruction, pollution, climate change and the exploitation of edible animals as if they were minerals in a mine (e.g. the collapse of the Atlantic cod stocks) are much, much better candidates than laboratory research.
In any event, I haven't seen a scrap of evidence that ALF is doing a damned thing about any of those problems. They're more interested in playing the lead role in their own fantasy morality play by trying to intimidate scientists into bowing to their will than in doing anything that could reasonably be expected to benefit the biosphere we live in.
This use of intimidation by the threat of violence is something which a society that pretends to civilization cannot allow. There isn't a dime's worth of ethical difference between people who plant firebombs at the homes of people they don't like and the shitwads who do the same thing to Planned Parenthood clinics. Terrorism is as terrorism does.
An unpleasant fact which is increasingly borne in upon me as I grow into a cranky, constipated old man is that a damned lot of "activist" types, irrespective of the politics they claim to espouse, are actually classic right-wing authoritarian followers, as described in Bob Altemeyer's work. The traits are all there: authoritarian submission, as evidenced by the eager willingness to believe what their leaders tell them about the Evil Other, authoritarian aggression, as evidenced by acts just like the one in the OP, and high conventionality, as shown in clinging to an ideologically-determined worldview irrespective of any evidence to the contrary or even that their acts are counterproductive to achieving their goals. When a society develops such a tendency to sprout Junior Brownshirts as ours seems to be doing, there's something seriously wrong, and it isn't in the scientific world.
What astonishes me is that this was allowed to happen at all. If the cops were serious about performing their duties and capable of learning from experience, the obvious thing to do would have been to put Dr. London's house under discreet 24/7 surveillance right after the flooding incident, as the prediction that these shitsticks would come back and try something worse isn't exactly Randi Prize material. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Prof's home attacked by suspected ALF terrorists
