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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2008 : 21:09:44
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"Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg is a disturbing new book that seems to equate any government programs or government assistance that hints at liberalism as fascist. The ploy has surfaced occasionally in the past and to me it seems like just more framing, redefining and vilifying by conservatives.
Even though, generally speaking we have traditionally lived in a "liberal democracy", the far-right has succeeded in recent years in so vilifying the word "liberal" that liberals today often call themselves "progressives". That may not be the only reason, but it is surely one.
This New York Times review outlines some of the background and history, including the liberal use of the term "fascist".
Though the Nazis in the 1930s built highways and created public works programs as did the communists under Stalin, as did FDR and the New Deal all as a reaction of post WW1 economic depression, I just don't equate FDR's altruistic public works programs with goose stepping Nazis. Liberals were in fact persecuted under Stalin and Hitler. I don't have a lot to say about this but I see this book as weird twisted propaganda, and being as it is a "best seller" I wonder how much damage to rational thinking it will incur.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 23:15:40 [Permalink]
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This guy is a moron. He, and other conservatives, have a half dozen "new" definitions for fascism, none even close to the actual definition. They just want to try and label liberals with a scary word.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 23:32:32 [Permalink]
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Ed Brayton has already pointed out a few idiot conservatives who are picking up on this trend. A man by the name of John Ray compares Obama's calls for unity to fascism:
| In fact, with his constant inspirational calls for national unity, Obama is eerily reminiscent of the Fascists. If he spoke German he might well be inclined to adopt as his slogan Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer -- as Hitler did ("One nation, one government, one leader"). |
A blogger by the name of Gribbit sees parallels between Obama's charisma and that of Hilter and other cult leaders
| Others with Obama's type of charisma? How about Hitler, Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara, Marshall Applewhite, and others skilled at charming others to their ill will. Are these the type of people that you'd want to run this nation? Vote for Obama and that is what you get. |
In the past I would say that no one could be stupid enough to fall for such pathetically ridiculous arguments, especially since as Ed points out the same standards are never applied to conservative heroes, but then again we are talking about Republicans. They've proven themselves capable of swallowing any lie, no matter how stupid or obvious.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 09:23:03 [Permalink]
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fascism:
| any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition |
Yeah, that perfectly describes Obama and liberals and Islamics....
Not that it is an accurate description of any US political party, but the theocratic republicans fit that definition more closely than any of the groups they are attempting to label with the word.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 11:50:30 [Permalink]
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| Its ironic that the far-right in this country has been barrowing a page from Hitler's book in simply vilifying and scapegoating liberalism to the extent that "Liberal" becomes a negative word to some. However, everybody knows that "fascism" is a term they cannot redefine or redeem so they merely apply it to their enemies. They have no sense of the ironic. Elements of actual fascism, which Mussolini called "corporatism" are surely well within the policies of the modern day Republican Party, whether their followers know it or not. This is just another case of them muddying and detouring criticisms. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 12:35:26 [Permalink]
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A conservative official of the past.
Note that the mouth has plenty of room to accomodate the foot.
Goldberg's an ass who might soon be tasting shoe leather, and it's a sad commentary on American intellect that he has any readership at all. It is even sadder that because the words 'Socialist' & Workers' was part of the Nazi Party's (National Socialist German Workers Party) name that he can get away with claiming that those scumbags were anywhere near the left wing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 22:19:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Its ironic that the far-right in this country has been barrowing a page from Hitler's book in simply vilifying and scapegoating liberalism...
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What's amazingly ironic is the very next post from this one is a picture of Goebbels with a caption equating him with conservativism.
If we are honest, and we generally are not, we will admit that no one part of the political spectrum has a monopoly on intolerance, mindless dogma, or vilification of opponents rather than understanding or debating them.
I don't know very much about Jonah Goldberg. I haven't read his book, but I do think I've seen him in a couple of interviews, one of which may have been on The Daily Show. What I do know is that intelligent discussion of him doesn't include just calling him names and bashing conservatism in general, but would include an actual examination of his ideas.
So far I don't see any evidence that anyone in this thread discussing this book has actually read it.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 22:49:39 [Permalink]
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And the concern troll appears right on cue.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/02/2008 22:52:10 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 23:06:06 [Permalink]
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I read the NY Times review, noting that it is on their best seller list and I saw the author interviewed on TV. I did not read it cover to cover but did browse passages to get an impression in the local bookstore.
When I refer to the "far-right" I am at first differentiating them from more moderate conservatives who, despite having been as strongly disenfranchised in these past eight years by the Bush regime as liberals, nevertheless fall lockstep in with the NeoCons practically on every vote. There can be in fact "liberal conservatives" - a term impossible to use these days due in part to Rove's past election-year tactics, the current White House mindset and policies and the NeoCon's general vilification of all liberal concepts. The Republican Party is now the NeoCon Party much more than the Democratic Party is a Liberal Party. In my view, the current Democratic representatives actually range from conservative to "progressive-afraid-to-say-liberal". The NY Times review acknowledges that the Left has also co-opted the accusation of "fascist" and applied it, sometimes crudely to their diverse opponents. The fact is, the out-and-out left wing in this country cannot be equated with fascism, so the book if not bizarre satire, is ridiculous and comes across as an election year rant possibly intended to cast disillusionment and doubt for any and all candidates who propose social change and social programs, in other words, Liberals. It is easily dismissed. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2008 : 23:40:06 [Permalink]
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mycroft said:
So far I don't see any evidence that anyone in this thread discussing this book has actually read it.
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Well, you'd be wrong.
I have read the first 30 or so pages, and my conclusion is that the author is a moron.
I have also seen him interviewed by 3 or 4 talking heads, and remain unimpressed with his lame attempts to explain his thesis. What he is doing with his book is nothing more than liberal bashing. He clearly doesn't know the actual definition or origin of the word fascism, or if he does he doesn't care.
His intent is pretty clear. Further demonization of liberals by revisionism and redefinition of history and words.
I stand by my conclusion that he is a moron.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2008 : 04:47:46 [Permalink]
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Goldberg calls me a fascist, I'm willing to hand it right back to him in spades, the difference being that my accusation has the authority of history, recent & past.
The Conservatives had their chance to run the country and gave it over to the Nazidiot wing of their party, thereby robbing themselves of any credibility whatsoever. In short, they fucking blew it, and now, unwilling to admit that fact, they must resort to petty rants instead of trying to help clean the mess up.
Josef Goebbels would fit quite comfortably into our current administration and it's cult of fellow travelers. Get him out of that funky uniform and into a suit, and he'd make an excellent CEO for Fox News.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Liberals labeled as "Fascists" Ploy
