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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2008 : 06:35:43
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Well, on the internet this is already old news, but it's new to us.
(well, to me, anyway)
"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a classic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."
He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.
He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible. |
Who knows? How could such a thing be proven one way or the other? We could only settle for "probably or probably not", and that would be the best we could get.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2008 : 06:42:28 [Permalink]
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I'd say the people who wrote the old testament (and new for that matter) were high on something.
Its a stretch to claim that their fictional characters were also high though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2008 : 07:24:48 [Permalink]
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What?! Moses wasn't as pure in mind and spirit as we might have been led to believe? Oh, say not so!
Anyone who thinks that it's not a distinct possibility doesn't know much about human nature. Or religion either, comes to that.
Genesis:
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Yeah, he was likely a doper and the biggest difference between ol' Moe and the rest was, as a leader, he had access to better shit.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 08:23:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I'd say the people who wrote the old testament (and new for that matter) were high on something.
Its a stretch to claim that their fictional characters were also high though.
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I do think Balaam's Ass was smoking something.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 09:02:54 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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alleyes
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 09:51:16 [Permalink]
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I have been researching that. There is actually a surprising amount of evidence which fits with this theory;
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dg345zq4_1cqxh29cg
I have never been sure why people who like an alcoholic drink now and then get so upset and opposed to people using the non addictive psychoactive drugs.
When it is things like Belladonna, which produces such intense hallucinations there can be a complete break with reality, this deep seated reaction might be based on very real bad experiences, but when it is towards something like cannabis it seems completely irrational.
I notice these reactions often come from people who follow the religions with roots in the Middle East. This is peculiar, because I don't see where the Bible says not to use psychoactive plants, and what is said, is against drinking alcohol.
When there is an irrational deep seated response that is so widespread, I tend to think something is behind that.
One explanation might be found in that in the Bible there seems to be very strict rules around the use of these substances, so perhaps there was always taboos against recreational drug use.
Another explanation is that maybe, somewhere in the back of their minds, people know many of the experiences that gave rise to their faith were drug induced. That would probably be a bit humiliating, and unsettling. If that was admitted, then people would have to go over the good book and consider what might be legitimate insight, and what might be confused primitive people getting stoned on drugs, trying to understand cause and effect in the world around them.
Ironically, if this is true, the Bible and confusion created by the Christian religion may be one of the strongest arguments anyone could hope to make, about the dangers to society, when people mess with mind altering drugs.
Maybe that is a bit closer to the truth than many Christians want to face.
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| Edited by - alleyes on 03/05/2008 09:59:21 |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2008 : 10:45:29 [Permalink]
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Wah! I find these thoughts very interesting. That would be a sad thruth to face, ahaha!
Cheers!
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"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 10:36:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Well, on the internet this is already old news, but it's new to us.
(well, to me, anyway)
"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a classic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."
He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.
He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible. |
Who knows? How could such a thing be proven one way or the other? We could only settle for "probably or probably not", and that would be the best we could get.
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Why try to find real-world explanations for the supernatural occurances documented in the bible? Whether totally fictional or a real dude on drugs, Moses was still not out there saving God's Chosen People with miracles.
On a related topic, I recall in high school being very interested in some conversation about how the Red Sea could have parted in a seemingly natural event, like with a well placed Earth Quake or something. I think some moron was actually 'researching' the question and wrote an article about it. Now when I think of that, I wonder what in the world these people are thinking. What difference does it make if God set up an amazingly timed and placed Earth Quake to part the Red Sea or if god reached down His mighty hand and parted the seas manually? It's still a miracle. It still requires Faith.
IMO, it's completely wasted thought, but I think I understand what they're up to. There's always the embarrassing question of why God was so active in human affairs in the distant past but so inactive in modern history. The obvious answer is, of course, god wasn't active in the deep past any more than today. But if god's activity in the past could have been carried out with natural phenomena, then the past is consistent with the present and the embarrassing question is <slightly> less embarrassing. |
-Chaloobi
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2008 : 11:18:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
IMO, it's completely wasted thought, but I think I understand what they're up to. There's always the embarrassing question of why God was so active in human affairs in the distant past but so inactive in modern history. The obvious answer is, of course, god wasn't active in the deep past any more than today. But if god's activity in the past could have been carried out with natural phenomena, then the past is consistent with the present and the embarrassing question is <slightly> less embarrassing.
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That might be the goal, but I've always felt that those researchers who come up with these convoluted "natural" explanations (inadvertently?) end up making the supernatural explanation sound all the more plausible. It's the "it takes more faith not to believe" argument all over again. The faithful eye these "just so" naturalist miracle stories with great suspicion, and rightly so. They are usually highly implausible. Often believers come away with the idea that atheists are merely grasping at straws in order to deny the obvious and disconcerting truth: that God performed a miracle.
In this particular case, there is no need to assume Moses was high. It's an unwarranted assumption because, as skeptics everywhere know, people don't need to be on drugs to believe extremely wacky shit. This narrative also assumes the most simplistic view of history, i.e. Moses writes that he saw a burning bush, therefore we must assume that he did see a burning bush. This ignores the messy but more likely possibilities that Moses was embellishing spiritual morality tales with arcane symbolism. Or he was subject to hallucinations. Or he was writing about a phenomenon he didn't understand and lacked the vocabulary to describe. Any number of alternate possibilities.
There is never a reason to accept a fantastical story element at face value. There is never a reason to believe a fantastical event occurred as reported, or in many cases even occurred at all. There is no current archaeological evidence that there ever was a historical Exodus. Inventing naturalist explanations for miracles that likely never occurred makes about as much sense trying to come up theories on how the witches in Harry Potter flew on broomsticks. ("They never really did, it was just an effect of a hallucinogenic tea they concocted in potions class.") So does it really take more faith to disbelieve than to believe? Only if you make the mistake of treating ancient religious texts as journalistic accounts reporting on real events.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/13/2008 11:20:10 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 11:37:18 [Permalink]
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| people don't need to be on drugs to believe extremely wacky shit. |
Well said. 
EDIT: And I agree, if people are arguing whether God did it in an overtly miraculous way or whether God did it using natural forces, they're always assuming God did it, which is good for the Church. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 03/13/2008 11:39:20 |
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alleyes
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 10:05:31 [Permalink]
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There is never a reason to accept a fantastical story element at face value. There is never a reason to believe a fantastical event occurred as reported, or in many cases even occurred at all. There is no current archaeological evidence that there ever was a historical Exodus. Inventing naturalist explanations for miracles that likely never occurred makes about as much sense trying to come up theories on how the witches in Harry Potter flew on broomsticks. |
I think that is a really good point, and as most of us grew up with these stories being presented as fact since we were children, it is interesting to look at how many of us assume our parents and society couldn't have been completely wrong, and somehow there must be something in these stories that is true.
In yet every other culture which has stories about the past that we know does not fit with the facts of the world as we know it, we easily dismiss this as a myth.
In a way, to expect to find facts behind these stories probably just reveals the depth of our unconscious cultural bias and conceit.
On the other hand, the mythologies of various cultures do reveal a lot of real things about what was really going on in a culture, and how people lived and what they believed.
In the thread discussing evidence for Jesus, someone mentioned that just because a fictional novel has the names of some real towns and real historical events, that does not mean it is a true story. I would counter that with the point that just because a fictional novel is not a true story, doesn't mean that whoever wrote it did not draw on real places, events and their real beliefs ( or what they wanted or needed to believe ) about the real world.
So from that standpoint I think everything in the Bible is a really valuable record of things that really happened. The tricky part is sorting out if they really happened historically, or if they really happened in how people imagined, believed, understood or hoped the world worked. Either way it is a valuable record of a real cultural and historical past which continues in many of our beliefs and assumptions to this day.
In this particular case, there is no need to assume Moses was high. It's an unwarranted assumption because, as skeptics everywhere know, people don't need to be on drugs to believe extremely wacky shit. |
I don't think anyone is assuming Moses was high, and I agree this would be an unwarranted assumption. But it is an equally unwarranted assumption that whatever inspired this story had nothing to do with using psychoactive plants. I don't think it would be an unwarranted assumption to assume that these stories were probably born out of accumulated collective experience, which had some basis in real life experience, and that the use of psychoactive drugs may have been a component of this day to day experience.
Such speculation would need to be backed up by other evidence to have any weight and even if there is other evidence, it still doesn't prove anything. But like any hypothesis it might suggest where to look for more evidence.
Below is a link to the published article ( not the sensationalized newspaper rendition of it . To read it you need to click the PFD link)
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/berg/tmdj/2008/00000001/00000001/art00004
From my own research I believe there is more evidence that might point to the conclusion hypothesized by Shanon Benny, that was not included in this article. Most of what I ran across is in the link I posted above.
But one thing in this article struck me as a bit distorted.
He seems to feel it is relevant that Ruth in the Bible was willing to let her sister sleep with their shared husband, in exchange for the mandrake roots Ruth's sister Leah had. The author says he finds this amazing and that this proves how important these psychoactive roots must have been.
He completely overlooks the fact these roots are a powerful emetic. Most people report being unable to consume a large enough quantity of mandrake to feel more than a subtle effect of expecting something. It seems people who try to consume a large quantity spend the night on the toilet. The other problem with this interpretation is that mandrake has a association in folklore with helping a woman to conceive, which fits with the feeling of expectation people report who have tried using it. The Bible clearly states that the hope of bearing a child is the reason these were wanted by Ruth. She was barren and her sister Leah was not.
That Shanon Benny would seem to interpret this story as evidence of this plant being used because it was psychoactive, seems to me to be a bit of a stretch. IMO this slightly weakened the credibility of the rest of his hypothesis.
But I do find the speculation interesting. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 10:50:00 [Permalink]
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| On a related topic, I recall in high school being very interested in some conversation about how the Red Sea could have parted in a seemingly natural event, like with a well placed Earth Quake or something. I think some moron was actually 'researching' the question and wrote an article about it. Now when I think of that, I wonder what in the world these people are thinking. What difference does it make if God set up an amazingly timed and placed Earth Quake to part the Red Sea or if god reached down His mighty hand and parted the seas manually? It's still a miracle. It still requires Faith. |
Actually there is a hypothesis that the reed sea could have drained suddenly when the Isle of Santorini collapsed and shed a Tsunami. Pumice from Santorini has been found in the area. Also it has been suggested that all of the plagues (the ones that actually happened) may have been a result of this events varied effects. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 11:08:33 [Permalink]
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The river of blood may have been red tide, which killed all of the fish. The tsunami flushes the base of the Nile with dinoflagellates from the salt water of the Mediterrainian, this in turn causes the red tide bloom killing the fish. The fish are the main predators of the frogs, the frog population blooms and they are driven away from the river by the red tide, where they die of dehydration.
The lowlands are flushed with water leaving stagnant pools everywhere, this causes the bloom of water-born flys/mosquitos.
Stable flys then cause the surra plague in all of the animals
Culicoides midge transmitted both African horse sickness (killing horses, donkeys and other equines) and bluetongue (killing cattle, sheep and goats).
The boils and skin sores of the sixth plague, according to Hoyte, resulted from the bites of stable flies. Open wounds led to infections such as Group A streptococci. Marr and Malloy conclude that it most likely was glanders, an airborne bacterial disease of animal and humans presently found in Africa and the Middle East. Fly bites can transmit glanders.
Hoyte simply states that the seventh, eighth, and ninth plagues were a hail storm, a swarm of locusts, and a dust storm respectively. Mart and Malloy point out that hailstorms do occur in Egypt and can devastate crops. A plague of locusts would have devoured all plant food still in the fields. The plague of darkness is a dust storm, a common event in the region.
The final plague, death of all firstborn, is most likely caused by an epidemic of typhoid fever, according to Hoyte. Mart and Malloy disagree with the typhoid idea and offer another explanation. They conclude that the loss of fish, crops, and livestock meant that the only food source left was the stored grains from previous harvests. Toxic substances produced by fungi in the grains could have killed those who ingested them and in a time of shortage, the firstborn would have preferential access to the stored food.
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-Skeptical Inquirer
I think the darkness plague was actually the volcanic ash cloud, as could be the animal deaths...
This is mostly speculation, but then again its a hell of a lot firmer and based in a possible reality than the Moses version. I feel the event most likely happened, and they may have actually believed that it was their God cursing Egypt. Now I dont think that Moses predicted or threatened Ramses with the Plagues, but I see him claiming to afterwards. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 03/14/2008 11:10:42 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 11:28:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
| On a related topic, I recall in high school being very interested in some conversation about how the Red Sea could have parted in a seemingly natural event, like with a well placed Earth Quake or something. I think some moron was actually 'researching' the question and wrote an article about it. Now when I think of that, I wonder what in the world these people are thinking. What difference does it make if God set up an amazingly timed and placed Earth Quake to part the Red Sea or if god reached down His mighty hand and parted the seas manually? It's still a miracle. It still requires Faith. |
Actually there is a hypothesis that the reed sea could have drained suddenly when the Isle of Santorini collapsed and shed a Tsunami. Pumice from Santorini has been found in the area. Also it has been suggested that all of the plagues (the ones that actually happened) may have been a result of this events varied effects.
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I don't believe God coopted Moses to 'set his people free' from Isreal using plagues and sea partings. I think that entire story is myth and so I have no interest at all in the possibility that a tsunami parted the Red Sea and helped engender the biblical story. Unless I have Faith (or want Faith, god forbid) and I'm looking for some real world evidence to support it, what possible reason could there be to do this kind of research? |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 03/14/2008 11:29:51 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 11:45:14 [Permalink]
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| I think that entire story is myth and so I have no interest at all in the possibility that a tsunami parted the Red Sea and helped engender the biblical story. Unless I have Faith (or want Faith, god forbid) and I'm looking for some real world evidence to support it, what possible reason could there be to do this kind of research? |
To disprove 3000 years of idiocy?
Also its the Reed sea in the case I mentioned, many believe the Red sea to be a mistranslation. This is the type of thing that stands out to me as something not likely fabricated. Fabrications are usually far less complicated. I see no reason not to study it. The "myths" of Troy, Shangrala and El Dorodo are no longer considered to be pure fiction, if someone didnt believe there was an element of truth to them, they would still be myths. Also the Atlantis Mythos has led to many discoveries regarding the Minoans. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 11:47:32 [Permalink]
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| Now I dont think that Moses predicted or threatened Ramses with the Plagues, but I see him claiming to afterwards. |
Pat Robertson copy-cat is what he is, the bastard. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Israeli researcher says Moses was high on drugs
